Is LeBron Overrated?

[LVJimmy]

Hmm, a lot of people in this thread certainly look stupid at this point just as I did when I ripped the Phillies last year. You guys should read the posts in here...some of them are hilarious.

[wayne1218]

Hmm, a lot of people in this thread certainly look stupid at this point just as I did when I ripped the Phillies last year. You guys should read the posts in here...some of them are hilarious.

Please Jimmy. One thread is nothing like you were in 100 threads for 6 months bitching about your team. Not even close ........

I stand by my statements in this thread. I thought Lebron was great then and i think he is great now. Does his play shock anyone 6 months later than this thread was started? I think everybody knew he was a superstar and i think everybody knew he was only going to get better. Most people's point was simple, let him get multiple rings before you start comparing him and his stature in the game to guys like Jordan.

[LVJimmy]

Please Jimmy. One thread is nothing like you were in 100 threads for 6 months bitching about your team. Not even close ........

I stand by my statements in this thread. I thought Lebron was great then and i think he is great now. Does his play shock anyone 6 months later than this thread was started? I think everybody knew he was a superstar and i think everybody knew he was only going to get better. Most people's point was simple, let him get multiple rings before you start comparing him and his stature in the game to guys like Jordan.

Like I said, a lot of the posts in here are hilarious. Yes, I complained about my favorite team (even though they didn't win the WS due to offense), but some of the posts in here are comical, regardless of when they were posted.

[mavskidd02]

Please Jimmy. One thread is nothing like you were in 100 threads for 6 months bitching about your team. Not even close ........

I stand by my statements in this thread. I thought Lebron was great then and i think he is great now. Does his play shock anyone 6 months later than this thread was started? I think everybody knew he was a superstar and i think everybody knew he was only going to get better. Most people's point was simple, let him get multiple rings before you start comparing him and his stature in the game to guys like Jordan.

The whole..... "he's got to win a title first" argument is ridiculous. The guy is GREAT, whether he wins 1, 3, 5, or ZERO championships. He is a GREAT basketball, and overrated in no sense of the word.

[wayne1218]

The whole..... "he's got to win a title first" argument is ridiculous. The guy is GREAT, whether he wins 1, 3, 5, or ZERO championships. He is a GREAT basketball, and overrated in no sense of the word.

Well, We disagree. As great as Dan Marino was, it never takes long to have the never won a title conversation come up when you talk about him. Guys like John Stockton & Karl Malone ... same thing. A-Rod? Great ... Never won a thing. There are many great players. The Rings seperate you from others in the end (IMO).

If Jordan didn't Win 6 Titles, he would not have been "Michael Jordan". Do you get what i'm saying?

[mavskidd02]

Well, We disagree. As great as Dan Marino was, it never takes long to have the never won a title conversation come up when you talk about him. Guys like John Stockton & Karl Malone ... same thing. A-Rod? Great ... Never won a thing. There are many great players. The Rings seperate you from others in the end (IMO).

If Jordan didn't Win 6 Titles, he would not have been "Michael Jordan". Do you get what i'm saying?

Sure I get what you're saying but it's not all equal. Dan Marino WAS GREAT. He just never had the right set of guys around him. And I'm not going to let that take away from my opinion of him. When did every plays level of GREATNESS start being judged solely on championships?

This logic, makes Trent Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino. And Robery Horry a six times better forward than Karl Malone. That's ludicrous.

See what I'm saying?

[wayne1218]

Sure I get what you're saying but it's not all equal. Dan Marino WAS GREAT. He just never had the right set of guys around him. And I'm not going to let that take away from my opinion of him. When did every plays level of GREATNESS start being judged solely on championships?

This logic, makes Trent Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino. And Robery Horry a six times better forward than Karl Malone. That's ludicrous.

See what I'm saying?

I agree and i think they are all great too. Don't get me wrong, they are great but guys like Montana, Jordan, Gretzky, Russell, Magic Johnson and others seemed to NEVER lose when it mattered and they are remembered for being "Closers" when the stage was at it's biggest. Guys who end their career with everything but the rings will ALWAYS be great but they themselves will ALWAYS feel like they were missing something. I think fans think the same way for the most part or you wouldn't always hear how many rings these guys have when you talk about them. They talk about Montana or Jordan or others with multiple rings and their ring count almost always is the intro to their name. If Lebron never wins a title, i guarantee he will feel like he didn't get what his ultimate goal was and i would feel the same way.

[mavskidd02]

I agree and i think they are all great too. Don't get me wrong, they are great but guys like Montana, Jordan, Gretzky, Russell, Magic Johnson and others seemed to NEVER lose when it mattered and they are remembered for being "Closers" when the stage was at it's biggest. Guys who end their career with everything but the rings will ALWAYS be great but they themselves will ALWAYS feel like they were missing something. I think fans think the same way for the most part or you wouldn't always hear how many rings these guys have when you talk about them. They talk about Montana or Jordan or others with multiple rings and their ring count almost always is the intro to their name. If Lebron never wins a title, i guarantee he will feel like he didn't get what his ultimate goal was and i would feel the same way.

Of course championships are the goal of every athlete, and every team who plays any sport. But the guys like Magic, Jordan, Montana, and Russell all were part of great teams. They weren't there by themselves. Michael Jordan did not win 6 championships. The Bulls won six championships. And I bet there are people who could tell you more of MJ's supporting cast from a decade ago, then they could of LeBron's right now. These guys with these championships happened to be great players on great teams. Marino, Malone, Stockton and others are still great players, they just didn't happen to have the privilage of playing alongside a group of other guys capable of winning a championship. It's a team sport, and you can be GREAT even if the rest of your team isn't.

[wayne1218]

Of course championships are the goal of every athlete, and every team who plays any sport. But the guys like Magic, Jordan, Montana, and Russell all were part of great teams. They weren't there by themselves. Michael Jordan did not win 6 championships. The Bulls won six championships. And I bet there are people who could tell you more of MJ's supporting cast from a decade ago, then they could of LeBron's right now. These guys with these championships happened to be great players on great teams. Marino, Malone, Stockton and others are still great players, they just didn't happen to have the privilage of playing alongside a group of other guys capable of winning a championship. It's a team sport, and you can be GREAT even if the rest of your team isn't.

I just can't go that far with it mavs. I used to like watching Marino play and i do think he had players around him ... a few times. He played most of his career with 2 great wr's and that defense wasn't the worst i've ever seen either. Weren't they the Killer "B's" or something? I hate that argument because he played a position (QB) that more than any other, can put a team on his back and carry them to wins. As much as Marino was great, i'll always also remember him coming up short year after year. How can you not. Same with Stockton & Malone. They were great but when they HAD to win, it never happened. I don't know how you can't seperate players by rings. Many had great chances and in the end, THEY FAILED. That matters "To Me".

[mavskidd02]

I just can't go that far with it mavs. I used to like watching Marino play and i do think he had players around him ... a few times. He played most of his career with 2 great wr's and that defense wasn't the worst i've ever seen either. Weren't they the Killer "B's" or something? I hate that argument because he played a position (QB) that more than any other, can put a team on his back and carry them to wins. As much as Marino was great, i'll always also remember him coming up short year after year. How can you not. Same with Stockton & Malone. They were great but when they HAD to win, it never happened. I don't know how you can't seperate players by rings. Many had great chances and in the end, THEY FAILED. That matters "To Me".

I can see the argument for Stock and Malone. But for football, where the game depends so much on so many different people, I think its unfair to take away from Marino. 21 other guys play every game in football. And if ONE of them plays great, it means nothing. This is not to say the others around him "stunk", but sometimes guys just do not have what it takes come "crunch time", and whether that was the fault of Marino is impossible to determine.

Yes, I can understand how championships can "separate the great", but I think often the point of "has he ever won it all?" is blown way out of proportion. It takes more than one man to win it all, and I think sometimes people lose sight of that. You say "many had great chances..... they failed." I will take it back to the same point as championships, players do not win and lose games. TEAMS do.

[wayne1218]

I can see the argument for Stock and Malone. But for football, where the game depends so much on so many different people, I think its unfair to take away from Marino. 21 other guys play every game in football. And if ONE of them plays great, it means nothing. This is not to say the others around him "stunk", but sometimes guys just do not have what it takes come "crunch time", and whether that was the fault of Marino is impossible to determine.

Yes, I can understand how championships can "separate the great", but I think often the point of "has he ever won it all?" is blown way out of proportion. It takes more than one man to win it all, and I think sometimes people lose sight of that. You say "many had great chances..... they failed." I will take it back to the same point as championships, players do not win and lose games. TEAMS do.

Sorry, I remember too many games that Marino threw for 300+ and when they needed a score to win it, he would drive down the field and lose it on downs or throw a pick. Certain QB's never failed in those situations and most made the right decision seemingly every time when the game was on the line. They have rings. I saw Marino fail to do that at the end of many games. He ended with none.

We agree to disagree!

[mavskidd02]

Sorry, I remember too many games that Marino threw for 300+ and when they needed a score to win it, he would drive down the field and lose it on downs or throw a pick. Certain QB's never failed in those situations and most made the right decision seemingly every time when the game was on the line. They have rings. I saw Marino fail to do that at the end of many games. He ended with none.

We agree to disagree!

I guess we will. I don't want to make this about Marino, but one last point I think is necessary to the defense of Dan Marino is this:

Marino played in three AFC championship games (big games), only once did he win one of these games. In these three games Marino threw for 937 yards ( 310 or so on average). 7 touchdowns (2.5 or so on average). And threw five interceptions. On average: 300+ yards 2+ touchdowns and less than 2 INTs in these "big games".

The one Super Bowl he played in was all but a mismatch all together where Marino threw for 300+ yards but him and the rest of the Dolphins were dismantled.

Doesn't seem to me like Marino was the one choking at crunch time in these "big spots."

[wayne1218]

I guess we will. I don't want to make this about Marino,

Me either but if Lebron never wins a ring, Marino will be a great comparison.

[wayne1218]

I guess we will. I don't want to make this about Marino, but one last point I think is necessary to the defense of Dan Marino is this:

Marino played in three AFC championship games (big games), only once did he win one of these games. In these three games Marino threw for 937 yards ( 310 or so on average). 7 touchdowns (2.5 or so on average). And threw five interceptions. On average: 300+ yards 2+ touchdowns and less than 2 INTs in these "big games".

The one Super Bowl he played in was all but a mismatch all together where Marino threw for 300+ yards but him and the rest of the Dolphins were dismantled.

Doesn't seem to me like Marino was the one choking at crunch time in these "big spots."

I watched a TON of Marino games mavs and throwing 1 incompletion on a critical late drive to kill it doesn't show up in the yardage category, or anywhere else. Picks matter on when you make them too. When i think of guys Montana, Jordan or Gretzky, all i can remember is success. Times when they made plays to win games, and titles. When i think of guys like Marino, there are no great passes or plays that i remember to win a game or a title. They don't exist. Hell, Warren Moon threw for a ton of yardage but he too sits in the background in all conversations because he lacks the hardware.

What are your greatest memories of Marino? One thing, stat sheets. You have no great memories on the field because nothing led to GREAT success of anything in the end.

[Tnbreakers]

Bullshit!!! You can be great and be on a very average team. You can be good and be on a great team. Results are very tough to measure! Agree to disagree is the result!