NYY offer CC almost $140 million for 6 yrs

[harold_bush]

You're right times have changed. Humans are bigger, faster and stronger than decades ago. Training is better. Dieting is better. They train year round.

The game is pussified. You don't think a modern day pitcher such as Sabathia can be conditioned to throw 350 innings? BTW 350 doesn't crack the top-500 (yes 500) MLB record for innings throw in a season. For anyone to suggest that CC will break down next season because he threw 350 innings is naive. There's no correlation between innings pitched and breaking down. There's dozens of pitchers that break down with very limited innings. Prior to this season Rich Harden has pitched 71 innings the last two seasons combined. Kerry Wood has thrown about 175 innings over the last 4 seasons. It boils down to mechanics.

Between 1960 and 1990 the average American male became 2 inches taller and 27 pounds heavier.

Of course pitchers CAN be conditioned, but they simply are not anymore. The rest of the argument is so irrelevant that I'm not going to waste my time responding. Bigger, faster, stronger has nothing to do with anything when it comes to an elbow. If anything, an argument can be made that bigger, faster, stronger put MORE stress on an elbow/shoulder.

[savage1]

I'll take it a step further and say NO pitchers are worth this kind of money for this many years. Regardlesss of pitch counts, pitchers are too big of an injury risk these days. You can count on one had how many pitchers in the last 10 years had a 6 year stretch where they pitched well enough to deserve that kind of cash.

As you can see from my previous post, I agree with you 100%.
As a Sox fan, I am happy-the Yankees have bought a number of big name pitchers sicne they last won the WS since 2000, and where has it got them?
They either have got hurt or didn't live up to expectations.
Sabathia is good but he isn't Cy Young, and keep in mind he is also well known to AL hitters.
From a differet perspective, think of it, Safatsia get 140 million for 6 years, and the US President at 450K a year(includes expenses) get 2,700,000 for six years for doing something a "little" more important.
ps Maybe Obama should redistribute some of that wealth. lol

[savage1]

The worst part about all of this is that salaries like this mean other pitchers will demand the same, meaning that a day to the ball park with the family will spiral out of more control than it already is.

[Three Jack]

The worst part about all of this is that salaries like this mean other pitchers will demand the same, meaning that a day to the ball park with the family will spiral out of more control than it already is.

That's ok...Sox aren't raising ticket prices so you are good to go! They are content being top of the food chain already!

[Bill the Thrill]

$1.25 and the all you can eat buffet nightly.....

Flash --this just in!

The Rangers are throwing in Breakfast at Denny's (THE GRANDSLAM)to their earlier offer!!!

[savage1]

That's ok...Sox aren't raising ticket prices so you are good to go! They are content being top of the food chain already!

You have a point, but wait until Beckett and other Sox pitchers come up for contract renegotiation when they see what Safatsia is getting.

[ctt8410]

You're right times have changed. Humans are bigger, faster and stronger than decades ago. Training is better. Dieting is better. They train year round.

The game is pussified. You don't think a modern day pitcher such as Sabathia can be conditioned to throw 350 innings? BTW 350 doesn't crack the top-500 (yes 500) MLB record for innings throw in a season. For anyone to suggest that CC will break down next season because he threw 350 innings is naive. There's no correlation between innings pitched and breaking down. There's dozens of pitchers that break down with very limited innings. Prior to this season Rich Harden has pitched 71 innings the last two seasons combined. Kerry Wood has thrown about 175 innings over the last 4 seasons. It boils down to mechanics.

Between 1960 and 1990 the average American male became 2 inches taller and 27 pounds heavier.

There's all kinds of correlation between pitch counts and breaking down. You mention Kerry Wood. Dude had 11 games where he broke 120 pitches including the 141 pitch game in 2003. You think that had nothing to do with his injuries during subsequent years?

People always like to reference guys like Fernando Valenzuela and his 20 complete games in 1986, but they never mention that he struggled with injuries his entire career after that year and never came anywhere near the pitcher he was before that season.

When you're paying a pitcher 20+ million a year, you tend to treat them a little less like disposable assets and actually follow suggestions from medical experts on these kinds of things.

[MtrCtyPimp]

CC is a big guy and he is in perfect baseball shape as far as im concerned and he doesnt throw those big benders that supposedly put stress on the elbow. (fast, change, slide). Guy is worth every penny as far as Im concerned. Personally I think he should get 5/100 and the Yankee premium is another year and about 4 million per season. If you want the best pitcher in the game you better pay the price.

PEACE

[savage1]

CC is a big guy and he is in perfect baseball shape as far as im concerned and he doesnt throw those big benders that supposedly put stress on the elbow. (fast, change, slide). Guy is worth every penny as far as Im concerned. Personally I think he should get 5/100 and the Yankee premium is another year and about 4 million per season. If you want the best pitcher in the game you better pay the price.

PEACE

He makes the top 5 pitchers in the game perhaps.
When he proves he can with some post season games like Beckett has, he may make #1 but certainly not there yet IMO and not worth 140 million for 6 years-no pitcher is for that matter-just look at the list of pitcehrs who have signed big longterm contracts and either became injured and were never the same or just plain fizzled.

[LeRoy]

CC is a big guy and he is in perfect baseball shape as far as im concerned and he doesnt throw those big benders that supposedly put stress on the elbow. (fast, change, slide). Guy is worth every penny as far as Im concerned. Personally I think he should get 5/100 and the Yankee premium is another year and about 4 million per season. If you want the best pitcher in the game you better pay the price.

PEACE

He kind of reminds me of a pitcher from your town a few years ago Mickey Lolich (probablly fucked up the last name Spelling wise)But what I remember of him he was a workhorse who pushed 300 innings a year who in extra inning games whould still be in there pitching.

[savage1]

Here is why I don't regard Safatsia the best pitcher in the league-not yet anyways.
Just look at his post season stats and especially the ERA.
Granted it is not a very big sample, but it is much, much worse than in regular season-Sorry-a 7.92 ERA doesn't qualify him in my book as the best pitcher in baseball;I also recall him losing a number of regular big games in the AL too over the years.
In short, all things considered I will give him a top 5 status but beyond that, he will have to prove himself a lot more especially to be rated #1 and to receive a preposterous amount of 140 million for 5 years.
Postseason Pitching Statistics
SEASON G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV ERA
2001 1 1 0 0 6.0 6 2 2 0 5 5 1 0 0 0 -- 3.00
2007 3 3 0 0 15.1 21 15 15 3 13 14 1 2 0 0 -- 8.80
2008 1 1 0 0 3.2 6 5 5 1 4 5 0 1 0 0 -- 12.27
Total 5 5 0 0 25.0 33 22 22 4 22 24 2 3 0 0 -- 7.92

[Three Jack]

Here is why I don't regard Safatsia the best pitcher in the league-not yet anyways.
Just look at his post season stats and especially the ERA.
Granted it is not a very big sample, but it is much, much worse than in regular season-Sorry-a 7.92 ERA doesn't qualify him in my book as the best pitcher in baseball;I also recall him losing a number of regular big games in the AL too over the years.
In short, all things considered I will give him a top 5 status but beyond that, he will have to prove himself a lot more especially to be rated #1 and to receive a preposterous amount of 140 million for 5 years.
Postseason Pitching Statistics
SEASON G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV ERA
2001 1 1 0 0 6.0 6 2 2 0 5 5 1 0 0 0 -- 3.00
2007 3 3 0 0 15.1 21 15 15 3 13 14 1 2 0 0 -- 8.80
2008 1 1 0 0 3.2 6 5 5 1 4 5 0 1 0 0 -- 12.27
Total 5 5 0 0 25.0 33 22 22 4 22 24 2 3 0 0 -- 7.92

I would be anxious to hear who your top 4 pitchers are then....obviously Beckett would be first. Then who?

[savage1]

Three Jack-my response which follows is in answer to Motor City Pimp's contention a few posts back stating that if you want the best pitcher in baseball(meaning Sabathia), you have to pay him accordingly.
I found these statistics and out of the list and not just using last season, I would rate the following at least as good as Sabathia if not better (and even more so relative to their salary if Sabathia gets 140 million for 6 years):
These are in order of the list for the most part and are also based on my own assessment-I would be hard pressed to list them in the actual order-suffice it to say that Sabathia is not better than any of them in my opinion:
Santana, Oswalt, Webb, Peavy, Halladay, Burnett, Sheets, Beckett(I am sure I left out a few, but I think you get my drift).
Here is the entire list:

Select
up to 5
players


Picks left Player W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO
1. M Rivera*
68 49 2.29 851 10 0 0 482 --- 1023.2 800 281 260 53 37 244 934
2. P Martinez*
214 99 2.91 467 400 46 17 3 --- 2782.2 2173 988 901 232 137 752 3117
3. J Santana*
109 51 3.11 285 209 9 6 1 1 1543.0 1274 574 534 167 31 427 1587
4. R Clemens*
354 184 3.12 709 707 118 46 0 --- 4916.2 4185 1885 1707 363 159 1580 4672
5. R Oswalt*
129 64 3.13 253 241 15 6 0 0 1622.0 1573 612 564 135 58 370 1335
6. G Maddux*
355 227 3.16 744 740 109 35 0 --- 5008.1 4726 1981 1756 353 137 999 3371
7. B Webb*
87 62 3.24 198 197 15 8 0 0 1315.2 1194 551 473 90 49 433 1063
8. J Peavy*
86 62 3.25 199 199 6 3 0 0 1261.0 1089 484 455 128 44 407 1256
9. R Johnson*
295 160 3.26 596 586 100 37 2 --- 4039.1 3249 1648 1461 392 188 1466 4789
9. J Smoltz*
210 147 3.26 708 466 53 16 154 --- 3395.0 2979 1336 1229 277 54 992 3011
11. R Hernandez*
67 71 3.45 1010 3 0 0 326 --- 1071.1 1002 475 411 96 35 462 945
12. C Schilling*
216 146 3.46 569 436 83 20 22 --- 3261.0 2998 1318 1253 347 52 711 3116
13. T Hudson*
146 77 3.48 304 303 22 11 0 0 2017.1 1909 857 781 160 75 619 1372
13. C Zambrano*
96 61 3.48 231 210 8 3 0 1 1382.0 1158 591 534 116 72 620 1172
15. R Halladay*
131 66 3.52 281 255 40 11 1 --- 1807.2 1763 788 706 150 51 420 1287
16. T Glavine*
305 203 3.54 682 682 56 25 0 --- 4413.1 4298 1900 1734 356 66 1500 2607
17. B Wickman*
63 61 3.57 835 28 1 1 267 --- 1059.0 1051 469 420 80 38 432 785
18. M Timlin*
75 73 3.63 1058 4 0 0 141 --- 1204.1 1168 533 486 118 47 377 872
19. K Wood*
77 61 3.65 276 178 11 5 34 --- 1219.1 947 525 494 131 88 577 1407
20. C Sabathia*
117 73 3.66 254 254 26 10 0 0 1659.1 1541 731 674 150 50 523 1393
21. M Mussina*
270 153 3.68 537 536 57 23 0 --- 3562.2 3460 1559 1458 376 60 785 2813
22. B Sheets*
86 83 3.72 221 221 18 4 0 0 1428.0 1402 650 591 160 31 313 1206
23. D Lowe*
126 107 3.75 533 255 9 3 85 --- 1940.1 1915 925 809 156 62 546 1275
24. J Beckett*
89 62 3.78 196 193 5 2 0 0 1188.2 1082 542 499 126 41 371 1131
25. M Buehrle*
122 87 3.80 293 268 23 7 0 2 1847.2 1921 876 780 209 47 425 1083
26. A Burnett*
87 76 3.81 215 211 19 9 0 1 1376.1 1199 645 583 122 60 568 1278
26. J Lackey*
91 63 3.81 207 206 13 7 0 0 1324.2 1342 618 561 134 64 394 1062
28. B Zito*
123 93 3.82 288 287 9 4 0 0 1807.0 1596 840 766 188 73 745 1347
29. A Pettitte*
215 127 3.89 436 426 25 4 0 --- 2731.2 2869 1308 1180 230 44 845 2002
30. D Willis*
68 56 3.91 170 169 15 8 0 0 1046.2 1064 501 455 98 53 379 775
31. M Stanton*
68 63 3.92 1178 1 0 0 84 --- 1114.0 1086 523 485 93 33 420 895
32. T Gordon*
138 125 3.94 887 203 18 4 158 --- 2106.1 1886 1012 923 176 38 974 1928
32. J Schmidt*
128 94 3.94 319 310 20 9 0 --- 1978.2 1830 946 867 183 49 780 1750
34. T Jones*
58 63 3.97 982 1 0 0 319 --- 1072.0 1072 518 473 93 38 443 868
35. M Morris*
121 92 3.98 307 276 23 8 4 --- 1806.0 1867 889 799 175 74 509 1214
36. M Hampton*
141 105 4.01 388 334 21 9 1 --- 2152.0 2239 1086 958 187 47 854 1310
37. R Cormier*
71 64 4.03 683 108 7 1 2 --- 1221.2 1248 604 547 121 51 317 760
38. K Millwood*
142 111 4.06 352 344 17 5 0 --- 2115.2 2126 1041 954 218 54 643 1685
38. B Penny*
94 75 4.06 249 245 3 2 0 0 1460.1 1478 704 658 137 39 475 1032
40. F Garcia*
118 77 4.07 266 265 12 4 0 0 1716.2 1669 822 777 206 57 554 1264
41. C Carpenter*
100 70 4.08 250 232 25 12 0 --- 1537.1 1576 768 697 174 57 468 1171
42. B Colon*
150 97 4.09 316 313 31 8 0 --- 2014.1 1999 989 916 243 42 689 1569
43. O Hernandez*
90 65 4.13 219 211 9 2 2 --- 1314.2 1181 641 604 177 67 479 1086
43. J Washburn*
98 100 4.13 284 272 8 3 1 --- 1687.2 1695 823 774 217 60 520 1003
43. D Wells*
239 157 4.13 660 489 54 12 13 --- 3439.0 3635 1702 1578 407 83 719 2201
46. K Escobar*
101 90 4.15 410 201 10 4 59 --- 1502.0 1457 753 693 137 46 607 1305
47. K Mercker*
74 67 4.16 692 150 2 1 25 --- 1325.1 1307 676 612 154 32 607 917
48. M Mulder*
103 60 4.18 205 203 25 10 0 1 1314.0 1352 657 611 141 50 412 834
49. R Franklin*
51 67 4.19 390 106 6 3 18 36 1047.1 1080 523 488 155 46 312 565
49. J Moyer*
246 185 4.19 637 584 31 9 0 --- 3746.2 3876 1881 1743 464 128 1074 2248

[ctt8410]

Choose any 5 guys on that entire list and they're all better than Sabathia?

[savage1]

Choose any 5 guys on that entire list and they're all better than Sabathia?

I don't know if I understand you, but I never said that ALL of the guys mentioned are as good as Sabathia or to choose any five.
I was merely trying to show how he rates with his others.
I listed the guys who I think are at least as good as he is.