Where did all the Red Sox's fans go

[diesel]

Here is the simple difference that no one is mentioning. The Yankees are deeper they can overcome injuries where the Red Sox have no depth. Either way when the Red Sox were healthy if they had played better they should have had a bigger lead and they didn't. Unfortunately when the Yankees lose a player like Matsui or Sheffield they replace them with a player like Bernie Williams. And I know Bernie is late in his career but he is still a viable major league player where when we lose a pitcher like Tim Wakefield we replace him with Jason Johnson.
However in reality what this comes down too is what on earth has happened to the Josh Beckett that pitched the first half of the year. His last six starts are pitiful and yesterday was just honestly one of the worst performances I have ecer seen in a vig game by a supposed ace

[10DimeBry]

Just answer this question please....

Would you agree that if we can not beat KC or TB then we have problems deeper than Varitek??? Is he the reason we lost those series??? I think if we can not hit triple A pitching we do not belong in any conversation about postseason (w or without #33)
Also Jason could not hit his way out of a paper bag this year and hit into countless double plays to end innings this year....

Again...this is only a red sox fans opinion..

did you watch TB/kc series at all? sox pen imploded. did they not? sox IMO have lots of problems, but clearly the biggest issue is the loss of varitek. its not even close. his .245 BA has nothing to do with it. its what he does behind the plate that is priceless. he carries that staff and its proven day in and day out. what else do you want me to say?

[TwoTonTony]

(10-8) with him after the break Tony and still a Winning record. You can search or come up with different reasons why they are slumping but to me, it's OBVIOUS!

wayne,

you love to be right.....in an area where there is not 100% absolute answer.....

10-8 says to me the trend of .600 baseball was beginning to wane.....You look at it simplistically and say it is still a winning record......but the trend was there.....they were coming undone...(hence my fire analogy)....there was a problem there with or without him.....excasberated with him out of course...

I am saying it is a piece of the problem where you say it is the whole problem.....

You give the position of catcher way too much importance.....

anyways, good luck....you win!!!

[wayne1218]

(10-8) with him after the break Tony and still a Winning record. You can search or come up with different reasons why they are slumping but to me, it's OBVIOUS!

That's (10-8) With him Tony and it was against tough competition so that wasn't exactly horrible. 7 OF 18 were against Oakland, 3 against Anaheim, 3 AT Seattle (Tough west coast trip) and one against a tough Texas lineup.

In turn, since the injury, we are (6-12). 12 of those 18 were against K.C., T.B., Baltimore & Cleveland.

Your argument there holds no weight!

[savage1]

Great discussion here today.
I for one as well as wayne stated that injury at the time to Varitek was incalculable(re: post 85 first line by Tony).
Comparing losses to different players on in different positions to those of another team is difficult;each team has its own chemistry and sparkplug.
I felt then as now that loss of Varitek was very serious, although I will admit that I didn't think Yanks would overcome losses of Matsuim Sheffield and then Cano so well.
One can say yeah it is the pitchers doing the pitching are the reason for the losses.
This may be true logically speaking but what about the psychological intangibles of pitchers of seeing strange catcher out there, a different body so to speak, holdong his glove a different way, calling the game a different way, taking more or perhaps less trime between pitches and on and on and on on. I think this could be disruptive to a young pitching staff and cause them to lose its concentration for a while and/or to take them out of synch.
I am not saying all of the runs, hits, walks, etc, can be attributed to above, but I have heard some players who played the game as well as some analysts state that they feel as I do that the loss of Varitek is a lot more than meets the eye at first glance.
Call it coincidence if you like that the team has fallen apart since he left;I choose to beleive that his loss has played a good part of it as it would for any team whose catcher is an integral part of the team.

[TwoTonTony]

did you watch TB/kc series at all? sox pen imploded. did they not? sox IMO have lots of problems, but clearly the biggest issue is the loss of varitek. its not even close. his .245 BA has nothing to do with it. its what he does behind the plate that is priceless. he carries that staff and its proven day in and day out. what else do you want me to say?

i did watch the series......my point was they should have been able to hit the staff of TB and KC......should they not have???? When you can not out score those teams you do not belong in contention....JMHO.....

Jason is arguable a big part of the problem and that is what all you guys have concentrated on...the problem side and that is my point....Where is the solution??? the offense steeping up.....the vets filling in and taking the weight off the young guys....a couple youngs guys stepping in and stepping up......We Sox fans look at the wrong things....The Yanks go down and instead of thinking oh no and concentrating on the loss, they just find guys to do the job.....if it takes 2-3 guys they will do that.....

Another topic and issue we are seriously skirting is Francona....I think his biggest problem is his loyalty to his players and primarily leaving relievers in 1 inning too long.....look at the stats on the relievers.......the 2nd inning they are in it comes undone and he just sits and watches.....

LOTS OF PROBLEMS!!!

[molta02]

So when the Cubs lose.....its because they are a joke, and not because of injuries. But when the Red Sox lose.....its because their .240 hitting catcher is on the DL. And I know he handles the pitching staff well and all, but major league pitchers should be able to throw strikes. And its not Variteks fault they have no relievers, no lefty in the 'pen, and wonder boy GM didnt make a move. The Red Sox are a joke, and its awfully quiet up here in the 'nation'.

[wayne1218]

wayne,

you love to be right.....in an area where there is not 100% absolute answer.....

10-8 says to me the trend of .600 baseball was beginning to wane.....You look at it simplistically and say it is still a winning record......but the trend was there.....they were coming undone...(hence my fire analogy)....there was a problem there with or without him.....excasberated with him out of course...

I am saying it is a piece of the problem where you say it is the whole problem.....

You give the position of catcher way too much importance.....

anyways, good luck....you win!!!

It's not about being right or wrong tony. I come with a good argument and unlike ANYONE else, have numbers to prove what they have done with or without him. I've been wrong many times and i have no problem admitting it when it happens!

[savage1]

Tony-I agree with a lot of what you say, but the other side of the coin is that perhaps for whatever reason Sox as a whole are too much dependent on Varitek's presence.

[wayne1218]

So when the Cubs lose.....its because they are a joke, and not because of injuries. But when the Red Sox lose.....its because their .240 hitting catcher is on the DL. And I know he handles the pitching staff well and all, but major league pitchers should be able to throw strikes. And its not Variteks fault they have no relievers, no lefty in the 'pen, and wonder boy GM didnt make a move. The Red Sox are a joke, and its awfully quiet up here in the 'nation'.

You no nothing about baseball if the 1st thing you talk about when mentioning a catcher is his batting average good or bad.

[molta02]

Nevermind the fact too that Cap'n Tek can't/won't even catch the hardest guy on the team to catch (wakefield).

[kbsooner21]

So when the Cubs lose.....its because they are a joke, and not because of injuries. But when the Red Sox lose.....its because their .240 hitting catcher is on the DL. And I know he handles the pitching staff well and all, but major league pitchers should be able to throw strikes. And its not Variteks fault they have no relievers, no lefty in the 'pen, and wonder boy GM didnt make a move. The Red Sox are a joke, and its awfully quiet up here in the 'nation'.

Thank You!

[molta02]

Thank You!

You're welcome. Tell the Rook the same. Its quite amusing how Red Sox fans are.....always singing a different tune when its their team they are talking about.

[wayne1218]

So when the Cubs lose.....its because they are a joke, and not because of injuries. But when the Red Sox lose.....its because their .240 hitting catcher is on the DL. And I know he handles the pitching staff well and all, but major league pitchers should be able to throw strikes. And its not Variteks fault they have no relievers, no lefty in the 'pen, and wonder boy GM didnt make a move. The Red Sox are a joke, and its awfully quiet up here in the 'nation'.

What's your point? They are better than the LAME ASSTROS!

[TheRook]

So when the Cubs lose.....its because they are a joke, and not because of injuries. But when the Red Sox lose.....its because their .240 hitting catcher is on the DL. And I know he handles the pitching staff well and all, but major league pitchers should be able to throw strikes. And its not Variteks fault they have no relievers, no lefty in the 'pen, and wonder boy GM didnt make a move. The Red Sox are a joke, and its awfully quiet up here in the 'nation'.

AMEN BROTHER!!!


I am flabbergasted by the spin being put on this.

I"m just amazed.

But i'm just a lowly cubs fan...what do I know.