Where did all the Red Sox's fans go

[TwoTonTony]

The fact that they said during the game that the ERA with the other guys catching is something like 1.5 runs higher than with Varitek is telling.
Did you see on ESPN tonight where they pointed out that Javy Lopez spent an undue amount of time fixing his sunglasses at a critcial point in the game when Becket was still pitching?;they pointed out that that in itself was bad for Becket's concentration.
I don't think the pitchers have confidence with Lopez calling the games and to a lesser extent Mirabelli on a day in and day out basis;Schilling is probably the exception.
I think while calling a game is important(and none of Varitek's replacements are as good as Varitek), the confidence factor Varitek brings is equally important,;he also inspires the team as a whole to play better(he is the captain) with his hard work and dedication.
Sure Lopez and Mirabelli try hard, but to me anyways, that certain intangible that Varitek brings is missing, and personally I feel with him catching, some of those huge innings by the Yankees might not have occurred;I think in short that Varitek is a steadying influence.
I don't think Francona has been much help during Varitek's absence and if anything, it shows me that Varitek is a lot more valuable to the team than is Francona.
Sure Sox are professionals and should be able to rise above the loss of a player, but this isn't a perfect world.

savage-

i do not know how much of that stuff is true or not.....for crying out loud beckett's concentration is being blamed on sunglasses??? he admitted he was afraid to put it over the plate where they could hit it.....Also i do not take what the announcers say all too seriously about varitek.......He is important and i do not want to lessen his importance, but Lopez managed a pretty good staff in atlanta for years........I can not and will not lay this at his feet.....To say this is caused by Variteks abscence is way too easy and in my opinion just wrong......We continuously hit into double plays...leave men on base.....leave pitchers in 1 inning too long, etc......Anyways, it is about to get worse.....And by the way.....i sincerely doubt he inspires their play because he is the captain....this is not little league...these guys are professionals and a pep talk from a catcher is not what elevates their play

[wayne1218]

I said the day Varitek went down that it was the BIGGEST injury we could possibly have. All i heard was it's "Meaningful" but we can over come it.

Well, what's their record and what's the team ERA since he's gone???

The numbers prove it in both and it's not a coincidence! It has been a SEVERE difference in his absence. Javy Lopez sucks!

He couldn't sniff the lineup in Baltimore and now i know why.

[TwoTonTony]

I said the day Varitek went down that it was the BIGGEST injury we could possibly have. All i heard was it's "Meaningful" but we can over come it.

Well, what's their record and what's the team ERA since he's gone???

The numbers prove it in both and it's not a coincidence! It has been a SEVERE difference in his absence. Javy Lopez sucks!

He couldn't sniff the lineup in Baltimore and now i know why.

i agree lopez sucks, but not winning without Varitek is a fucking copout.......I was at a red sox bar down here by the beach on friday and one thing i noticed is that red sox fans as a whole are a bunch of whiners and excuse makers.....Sorry, i am a fan also, but that part makes me sick......The Yanks lost alot more than us and they just kept on winning.....

I would love to hear the manager and pithcing coach's perspective on this......So if Posada goes down for 3 weeks do the Yanks lose most of their games???? Is the difference that great between Varitek and the backups??? Did Variteks abscence prevent us form hitting against tampa bay and KC??? among others??? Did his absence leave 22 men on base against the yanks in game 1????

bottom line is that winners overcome obstacles....they do not talk about them and complain.......and point fingers.....They get through things and pick each other up.........Uh, well unless you are the Red Sox who are looking for an excuse to throw the season away and The Varitek one seems to be a good one........And if it is the SOLE reason then we are a TERRIBLE team that has to rely on a catcher who hits around .245ish to save us.....Yes i know his presence is more than that....but Piazza who can not catch was able to manage a staff for crying out loud

[wayne1218]

i agree lopez sucks, but not winning without Varitek is a fucking copout.......I was at a red sox bar down here by the beach on friday and one thing i noticed is that red sox fans as a whole are a bunch of whiners and excuse makers.....Sorry, i am a fan also, but that part makes me sick......The Yanks lost alot more than us and they just kept on winning.....

I would love to hear the manager and pithcing coach's perspective on this......So if Posada goes down for 3 weeks do the Yanks lose most of their games???? Is the difference that great between Varitek and the backups??? Did Variteks abscence prevent us form hitting against tampa bay and KC??? among others??? Did his absence leave 22 men on base against the yanks in game 1????

bottom line is that winners overcome obstacles....they do not talk about them and complain.......and point fingers.....They get through things and pick each other up.........Uh, well unless you are the Red Sox who are looking for an excuse to throw the season away and The Varitek one seems to be a good one........And if it is the SOLE reason then we are a TERRIBLE team that has to rely on a catcher who hits around .245ish to save us.....Yes i know his presence is more than that....but Piazza who can not catch was able to manage a staff for crying out loud

Tony, You think everything we say is a "Copout". Teams win and lose for a reason and you are the one that can't ever understand or accept that. It's not a "Copout", it's not an "Excuse", and it's not "Cryin'". The facts are what they are and you need to understand that teams do lose because of circumstances and they win the same way. You seem to think no matter who is on the field, it shouldn't matter. You're wrong and there isn't many other ways to put it. I don't know if you live in a circle of whining Sox fans but i don't. They are "Realistic" and they understand that sometimes things happen that are very hard to over come. This was one of them. It doesn't mean they are not fans or making excuses because we are not thrilled with the results but it is what it is and the numbers couldn't be more GLARING at this point!

[JBC13]

Tony, You think everything we say is a "Copout". Teams win and lose for a reason and you are the one that can't ever understand or accept that. It's not a "Copout", it's not an "Excuse", and it's not "Cryin'". The facts are what they are and you need to understand that teams do lose because of circumstances and they win the same way. You seem to think no matter who is on the field, it shouldn't matter. You're wrong and there isn't many other ways to put it. I don't know if you live in a circle of whining Sox fans but i don't. They are "Realistic" and they understand that sometimes things happen that are very hard to over come. This was one of them. It doesn't mean they are not fans or making excuses because we are not thrilled with the results but it is what it is and the numbers couldn't be more GLARING at this point!

The reason the sox are losing isnt because varitek is gone....Teams lose players all the time, shit the yankees lost a ton of guys and they find ways to keep winning. Saying varitek is the reason they have been losing is an excuse in my opinion. If the reason that pitching staff has completley sucked latley is because of varitek being gone then they should not be playing big league ball.

[wayne1218]

The reason the sox are losing isnt because varitek is gone....Teams lose players all the time, shit the yankees lost a ton of guys and they find ways to keep winning. Saying varitek is the reason they have been losing is an excuse in my opinion. If the reason that pitching staff has completley sucked latley is because of varitek being gone then they should not be playing big league ball.

Your kidding right? Either that or you are just too YOUNG to comprehend what a catcher can do with a staff. Which one is it?

You don't think guys like, Papelbon, Lester & others are affected by his departure? Like i told tony, look at the numbers. You don't go 2/3 of a season with consistent numbers than lose your qb/captain on the field, have the numbers DRASTICALLY change and not point to that as "A" reason. I never said we would have won all these games with him did it? NO.

It is just one of the reasons but it is a HUGE one.

I don't make EXCUSES for them. I said they were done when they did nothing at the deadline. They had injuries than and there was no way they would keep up with NY with the team they had. Varitek went down and that was the final nail in our coffin. Where are the excuses? Excuses come when i cry and moan about umps, manager calls and so on. I'm not cryin' at all or making excuses for them. Theo fucked up this year and that's all there is to it. He did nothing while N.Y. got Abreu and Lidle. Theo sat back and now we are paying for it.

[JBC13]

Your kidding right? Either that or you are just too YOUNG to comprehend what a catcher can do with a staff. Which one is it?

You don't think guys like, Papelbon, Lester & others are affected by his departure? Like i told tony, look at the numbers. You don't go 2/3 of a season with consistent numbers than lose your qb/captain on the field, have the numbers DRASTICALLY change and not point to that as "A" reason. I never said we would have won all these games with him did it? NO.

It is just one of the reasons but it is a HUGE one.

I don't make EXCUSES for them. I said they were done when they did nothing at the deadline. They had injuries than and there was no way they would keep up with NY with the team they had. Varitek went down and that was the final nail in our coffin. Where are the excuses? Excuses come when i cry and moan about umps, manager calls and so on. I'm not cryin' at all or making excuses for them. Theo fucked up this year and that's all there is to it. He did nothing while N.Y. got Abreu and Lidle. Theo sat back and now we are paying for it.

You seem to be making excuses for the pitchers, and its a pretty lame excuse. I know varitek is a good catcher and the so called captain of the team but no one is going to convince me thats why the staff has been piss poor. Once again these are big league pitchers who are being paid millions of dollars to pitch. If there little captain gets hurt and thats the reason they cant pitch anymore than they should be playing minor league baseball. Thats a lame excuse for your pitching staff.

[Tinman1960]

Your kidding right? Either that or you are just too YOUNG to comprehend what a catcher can do with a staff. Which one is it?

You don't think guys like, Papelbon, Lester & others are affected by his departure? Like i told tony, look at the numbers. You don't go 2/3 of a season with consistent numbers than lose your qb/captain on the field, have the numbers DRASTICALLY change and not point to that as "A" reason. I never said we would have won all these games with him did it? NO.

It is just one of the reasons but it is a HUGE one.

I don't make EXCUSES for them. I said they were done when they did nothing at the deadline. They had injuries than and there was no way they would keep up with NY with the team they had. Varitek went down and that was the final nail in our coffin. Where are the excuses? Excuses come when i cry and moan about umps, manager calls and so on. I'm not cryin' at all or making excuses for them. Theo fucked up this year and that's all there is to it. He did nothing while N.Y. got Abreu and Lidle. Theo sat back and now we are paying for it.

LIKE MY AVATAR SAYS

[wayne1218]

You seem to be making excuses for the pitchers, and its a pretty lame excuse. I know varitek is a good catcher and the so called captain of the team but no one is going to convince me thats why the staff has been piss poor. Once again these are big league pitchers who are being paid millions of dollars to pitch. If there little captain gets hurt and thats the reason they cant pitch anymore than they should be playing minor league baseball. Thats a lame excuse for your pitching staff.

Nope, rookies come up and get trained on the mound by an All Star Captain who knows the league jeff. It's pretty simple to figure out their comfort zone there. If you throw in Javy Lopez who can't catch the ball and has no clue what to call for A.L. Batters, how confident is a Rookie now?

You will understand some day. There is a reason why they always call the Catcher the QB on the field. You figure it out.

[JBC13]

Nope, rookies come up and get trained on the mound by an All Star Captain who knows the league jeff. It's pretty simple to figure out their comfort zone there. If you throw in Javy Lopez who can't catch the ball and has no clue what to call for A.L. Batters, how confident is a Rookie now?

You will understand some day. There is a reason why they always call the Catcher the QB on the field. You figure it out.

I understand that a catcher is important for a pitcher...but he is gone, at some point you have to overcome that.

[wayne1218]

LIKE MY AVATAR SAYS

AGREED!

The ONLY WS we won in my lifetime came the year we made a blockbuster deadline trade and really shook things up. Look at every WS winner and what they did at the All Star break. 99% of them didn't sit idle. They made a move that made a difference! We did nothing and will go nowhere because of it. I said it then (before the injuries) and i'll say it now!

[wayne1218]

I understand that a catcher is important for a pitcher...but he is gone, at some point you have to overcome that.

I agree but if you have no replacement, then what?

[JBC13]

I agree but if you have no replacement, then what?

I dont understand why they dont use mirabelli....he has played with the team before, he at least has more knowledge about that staff then lopez does. ...doesnt he?

[savage1]

Obviously it is pretty difficult to prove how important and/or how unimportant Varitek is.
My own thinking as stated is that he is EXTREMELY important in the overall success of the team;remember he went down a few years ago and Sox also went into a funk.
No he is not having a great year offensively, but remember they won a WS with him and have made the playoffs or been in the playoff hunt with him in the lineup for the most part over the years when he plays;he adds a lot and by his dedication probably inspires other players to play better.
I think the one chosen to be captain is usually the player whom the Manager thinks is a good role model for others.
Sure everyone is a profesional and in theory should be able to play/pitch as well no matter who is catching.
Somehow though when I see the era of the team as a whole going up 1.5 runs a game during Varitek's absence, I have to concluded that it is not just coincidence and that his absence is a contributor.
Javy Lopez just doesn't cut it, and that sun glass example is just an example of something which Varitek would not dream of doing if there were even the remotest chance it might distract the pitcher.
I don't think the issue is whether it is right or wrong that the other players don't or can't play as well without him;the fact is that I think they play A LOT better with him in the lineup for many, many reasons, and that is what matters.
In all fairness to Lopez, even though he is a professional, I would think it very difficult for him to step in a try to fill Varitek's shoes right in the middle of the season;on the other hand, up to now he has not done it very well,and I think the reason is that he is not as smart or schooled as Varitek and simply does not know the hitters as well.
No he doesn't walk batters, but I think somehow his manner of calling a game does not allow most of the pitchers to pitch as well as they would with Varitek calling the game.
As stated/implied initially, the issue of Varitek's importance cannot be proven. but the fact that both Wayne and I, big Sox fans, stated openly that when he was injured, that it could be devastating and that we have been correct so far, should show you that there is something to ourway of thinking.
ps I respect Tony's thinking(another huge and longtime Sox fan) on this matter but obviously don't agree with his assesment.

[TwoTonTony]

Tony, You think everything we say is a "Copout". Teams win and lose for a reason and you are the one that can't ever understand or accept that. It's not a "Copout", it's not an "Excuse", and it's not "Cryin'". The facts are what they are and you need to understand that teams do lose because of circumstances and they win the same way. You seem to think no matter who is on the field, it shouldn't matter. You're wrong and there isn't many other ways to put it. I don't know if you live in a circle of whining Sox fans but i don't. They are "Realistic" and they understand that sometimes things happen that are very hard to over come. This was one of them. It doesn't mean they are not fans or making excuses because we are not thrilled with the results but it is what it is and the numbers couldn't be more GLARING at this point!

i did not say your answer was a copout and i am not bold enough or confident enough to say you are wrong, like you say to me. All I am saying is that there are ways around injuires.....guys stepping up......guys getting clutch hits......picking up the slack.....Also just because numbers fall when a player is out or rise, is not definitive data.....It could be coincidental, timing, good hitting, tired arms, etc.....I think Varitek manages a good game and with the young pitchers it may be more important, but it is not just the young pitchers that have imploded......Timlin, Beckett, Schilling......Regardless of who is behind the plate, the ball still has to be spotted.....If we look at the staff Lester has fallen off a little, but the 2nd round through the league could be attributed to that......Schilling has fallen lately.....Tek could not help that......Beckett has been bad the last 2.4 months...just thank goodness we hit for him.......Paplebon still has been good, but he is being seen by teams for the 3rd and 4th time and a book on him is being compiled......The rest of the staff has not executed....Tek could not have saved Johnson, Snyder, Tavares, Saenez....They implode on their own...

Do I think Varitek effected the club??? ABSOLUTELY!!! Should it have been enough to sink our battleship and is it the only reason?? NO WAY!!! I think it was a cumulative effect.....1st and foremost (with or withut him our staff is not as good or deep as we thought it was).....our hittting has come down to earth and we leave a lot of men on base.....

I would also like to see our teams batting average during Variteks abscence.......I am sure it has not gone up......

I will say it again.....When players on teams go down....good teams pick that player up for weeks at a time....Maybe not long term.....but who would have thought Melky Cabrera could have held the fort down in NY???

Wayne-
when i said copouts i refer to US - Red sox fans as 1....not singling anyone out and more or less giving a general consensus of what i was hearing at the sox bar the other night.....