Bush For the Hall of Fame

[savage1]

10 Dime-I think the basic issue is that you and I have different views about the integrity of what Bush says to the American public and what was revealed to the Congress.
Personally, I think Bush reveals only selective truths at best, withheld and continues to withhold key information;he and his Administration are very secretive and deceptive, and I really believe that sometime in the next few years, it will be proven that the facts and what bush knew surrounding Iraq and for that matter prior to 9/11 were not what was given out to Congress and the American public.
I have read enough books and seen enough evidence to conclude that this Administration has been duping the American public since its inception.
Therefore, I cannot agree with your perception that the Dems are equally to blame, as I don't believe they were given the real facts surrounding the issue of Iraq.
I view this Administration as a self-serving one, one which is all about money and catering to the big business and oil interests.
I don't believe that it is an accident/copincidence that Cheney is the VP, we went to Iraq, we are stilll there, and that oil companies have reaped obscene profits.
As bad as Bush is in my mind, Cheney is much worse!
ps I make look foolish in your eyes, but I bet I don't look foolish in the eyes of others like Bill Maher and others who share my point of view.
ps I just got the cd from my brother which has shocking evidence that we were all lied to regarding the facts leading up to and what happened on 9/11.
I will try to summarize the points after I get a chance to watch it.

I will report

[10DimeBry]

10 Dime-I think the basic issue is that you and I have different views about the integrity of what Bush says to the American public and what was revealed to the Congress.
Personally, I think Bush reveals only selective truths at best, withheld and continues to withhold key information;he and his Administration are very secretive and deceptive, and I really believe that sometime in the next few years, it will be proven that the facts and what bush knew surrounding Iraq and for that matter prior to 9/11 were not what was given out to Congress and the American public.
I have read enough books and seen enough evidence to conclude that this Administration has been duping the American public since its inception.
Therefore, I cannot agree with your perception that the Dems are equally to blame, as I don't believe they were given the real facts surrounding the issue of Iraq.
I view this Administration as a self-serving one, one which is all about money and catering to the big business and oil interests.
I don't believe that it is an accident/copincidence that Cheney is the VP, we went to Iraq, we are stilll there, and that oil companies have reaped obscene profits.
As bad as Bush is in my mind, Cheney is much worse!
ps I make look foolish in your eyes, but I bet I don't look foolish in the eyes of others like Bill Maher and others who share my point of view.
ps I just got the cd from my brother which has shocking evidence that we were all lied to regarding the facts leading up to and what happened on 9/11.
I will try to summarize the points after I get a chance to watch it.

I will report

how has bush mislead the public?? what books have you read? let me guess, prolly something from some left wing nut like Michael moore who FYI has massive stock interests in Haliburton which you know chaney is involved with. Selective truths? What good would it do for bush to only reveal selective truths? why would he do that? Why would he rish his name and legacy on that? it makes Zero sense. I'd love to see this evidence about 9/11. Why again is the Clinton admin. givin a free pass when it was on his watch that all the terroists came into the US trained on visa's while he was the president yet only one to get blamed again is Bush. I got no problem blaming bush for something but again you cant say that Dems and clinton are all high and might and did no wrong. If you do then your just flat out WRONG

[savage1]

how has bush mislead the public?? what books have you read? let me guess, prolly something from some left wing nut like Michael moore who FYI has massive stock interests in Haliburton which you know chaney is involved with. Selective truths? What good would it do for bush to only reveal selective truths? why would he do that? Why would he rish his name and legacy on that? it makes Zero sense. I'd love to see this evidence about 9/11. Why again is the Clinton admin. givin a free pass when it was on his watch that all the terroists came into the US trained on visa's while he was the president yet only one to get blamed again is Bush. I got no problem blaming bush for something but again you cant say that Dems and clinton are all high and might and did no wrong. If you do then your just flat out WRONG

I never said that the Clinton Administration was all good;they made mistakes also,as all presidents do.
As stated I read and listen to both sides regarding politics, and I judge by empirical results.
By my way of thinking and apparently that of an increasing number of many Americans (judging by poll numbers), the country is in mess in many areas.
ps You ask about selective truths(and lies for that matter)? Well why not when I believe that the prime motivation in invading Iraq was/is oil and to "finish" the job his daddy started;regaridng motivation, I am sure that while his legacy may be somewhat important to him, I think that patronizing his big buddy business interests is more important to him, and that he probably figured anyays he could dupe/spin the facts in such a way that the real truth would never come out;I think he miscaluculated badly.
In a nutshell, I don't trust Bush or his motivations at all, and shiver even further at the thought he has a pipeline to god and is carrying out god's will.
If he believes it, he is delusional;actually I think it is just a front to try to appeal to the religious right;he loses either way.

[kbsooner21]

why do you keep bringing up poll numbers?? have you ever met someone who has actually been "polled"??

[te14]

Hes a tool Savage, dont mind him

You always jump in and make my point for me. Although Savage and I disagree completely on political issues, I do respect the fact that he is honest in his beliefs and at least reasoned. I made a comment about this thread because I knew where it would head. If that was perceived as taking it personal, that was not my intent. But your intellectual and well thought out comment is to call me a name and in that vein, you can bite me.

[savage1]

why do you keep bringing up poll numbers?? have you ever met someone who has actually been "polled"??

Polls are accurate if done scientifically(I minored in stats. in college).
When numerous polls basically show the same thing-namely that people have lost confidence in Bush's ability to govern and believe country is headed in the wrong direction, I have to conclude that they have some validity and reliability.

[kbsooner21]

I just believe the polls are skewed toward whatever bias that particular news channel reports.

[Three Jack]

how has bush mislead the public?? what books have you read? let me guess, prolly something from some left wing nut like Michael moore who FYI has massive stock interests in Haliburton which you know chaney is involved with. Selective truths? What good would it do for bush to only reveal selective truths? why would he do that? Why would he rish his name and legacy on that? it makes Zero sense. I'd love to see this evidence about 9/11. Why again is the Clinton admin. givin a free pass when it was on his watch that all the terroists came into the US trained on visa's while he was the president yet only one to get blamed again is Bush. I got no problem blaming bush for something but again you cant say that Dems and clinton are all high and might and did no wrong. If you do then your just flat out WRONG

Great post 10Dime...I am so sick and tired of Bush getting hammered about WMD's and Clinton getting a pass. The Dems when Clinton was Prez were just as confident as Bush that Saddam had WMD's and used a lot of the same rhetoric. But because Bush acted on the information, he gets hammered. Clinton also had the opportunity to take out Bin Laden in 1999 but decided against the opportunity. Now we rip Bush for letting him run free in Afghanistan....

I, for one, will not start any rah-rah threads for Bush as I believe, while I like him, he has made plenty of mistakes and do not think he has done a great job. A lot of what we rip Bush for is his cleaning up from the Clinton Admin. But when the Dems present John Kerry as an alternative, give me Bush any day of the week. And let me know when Kerry decides to take a stand on anything!

[savage1]

Three Jack-Even if you make the assumption that US should have invaded Iraq(which I don't believe), that you have to at least concede that judging by the number of deaths, the billions spent and the fact that we are still there, it was and is a botched effort and that Bush and his administration failed and miscalulated badly in their plan.

[kbsooner21]

Ask the Iraqi's that are free of Saddam's regime that we are trying to help if it is a botched effort.

[savage1]

Ask the Iraqi's that are free of Saddam's regime that we are trying to help if it is a botched effort.

That is immaterial;we have no business meddling in the affairs of a soverign nation;you cannot judge the state of a different culture/society by OUR values.
To play devil's advocate, why stop there-why not "free" all the countries in the world? Obviously the answer is that the US does not have an economic interest in some of those other countries.
Faulty, deceptive and incompetent reasoning for invading Iraq do not justify invasion, and their "freedom" (not as free as you think with all the internal strife which still remains) does not make up for the lives lost and the billions wasted with no end in sight.
What you state by my way of thinking is a rationalization only.

[kbsooner21]

your whole argument is immaterial then. you have no basis for saying "faulty, deceptive, and incompetency reasoning!" Just because Bill Maher says it, doesn't mean its true!

[savage1]

your whole argument is immaterial then. you have no basis for saying "faulty, deceptive, and incompetency reasoning!" Just because Bill Maher says it, doesn't mean its true!

I form my opinions by what I read and hear on both sides and from my own opinions of what has happened historically and most importantly what I see with my own eyes regarding the mess the US and Iraq are in now.
No one will EVER convince me that a country like the US has to right to invade another soverign nation like Iraq when they posed no imminent threat to our safety and well being no matter how someone tries to spin/rationalize it.

[tkim11]

Jeez...I farted

[Three Jack]

I form my opinions by what I read and hear on both sides and from my own opinions of what has happened historically and most importantly what I see with my own eyes regarding the mess the US and Iraq are in now.
No one will EVER convince me that a country like the US has to right to invade another soverign nation like Iraq when they posed no imminent threat to our safety and well being no matter how someone tries to spin/rationalize it.

Savage, you make it sound like Bush lead us to this war alone. Clinton's rhetoric when he was Prez would lead you to believe we would have done the same thing. It is Monday Morning Quarterbacking to say that they posed no threat now, when EVERYONE in the world, including Clinton, was convinced they had WMD's. IMO, Bush never lied about the reasoning for the war. His reasoning was wrong, which as Prez of the US, is unacceptable. But he was using the same reasoning and the same information that Clinton had. And at least Bush has a semblence of a Plan. Depending on which Dem you ask and which way the wind blows, you get a different answer as to what there plan might be/is/will be....

Do you honestly believe John Kerry would have done a better job?