is today the day where we find out how many pitchers a pitcher can make?

[ChangingMyLuck3]

Detroit Edwin Jackson...132 pitches, 8 innings
Texas Kevin Millwood...121 pitches, 8 innings

Disgusting... way too many pitches

[kbsooner21]

What's the big deal? They are pitchers after all aren't they? They play once every 5 fucking days. Everyone is freaking soft these days.

[ChangingMyLuck3]

the big deal is that it effects the betting world. Arms might not get weaker but you miss your spots when your at 130 pitches. Perfect example is Edwin Jackson going into the 8th already with like 115 pitches... you're bound to miss locations and he did and Texas tied it up. 3-3. if you had Detroit -1.5 it was looking pretty good till the 8th. Edwin missed his spots and he left with it 3-3, Detorit wins by 1 but it fucks things up thats all. Im a pitcher, I know that at 132 pitches, im going to miss my locations... i can still get outs but a fresh arm from the bullpen is a much better option especially with the game on the line IMO.

[kbsooner21]

the big deal is that it effects the betting world. Arms might not get weaker but you miss your spots when your at 130 pitches. Perfect example is Edwin Jackson going into the 8th already with like 115 pitches... you're bound to miss locations and he did and Texas tied it up. 3-3. if you had Detroit -1.5 it was looking pretty good till the 8th. Edwin missed his spots and he left with it 3-3, Detorit wins by 1 but it fucks things up thats all. Im a pitcher, I know that at 132 pitches, im going to miss my locations... i can still get outs but a fresh arm from the bullpen is a much better option especially with the game on the line IMO.

I've been burned way more often by dumbass managers pulling out a starter who's "over" his pitch count than by managers keeping their starters in longer. Pitching sucks, all of it, these days.

[frankb03]

Disgusting... way too many pitches

Why? You watch too much BS on ESPN. Studies have shown limiting pitch count has not reduced the number of arm injuries. Prior to all these so-called specialists, mid-relievers, setup men, starters routinely pitched into 7, 8 and 9th innings.

The bigger problem is the inability of pitchers to consistently throws strikes. Too many batters take them into deep pitch counts thus throwing too many pitchers. At times it seems as if every batter has 3-1 or 3-2 count.

[wayne1218]

This is what starters SHOULD DO every outing. You work once every 5 days for 3 hours, condition your arm and suck it up like every other starter used to do. It should be like back in the day when there was no real pen or closer and it was a 4 man rotation. Pitchers are WAY TOO SOFT these days.

I actually LOVED seeing these pitchers fight it out. It was GREAT!

[frankb03]

I've been burned way more often by dumbass managers pulling out a starter who's "over" his pitch count than by managers keeping their starters in longer. Pitching sucks, all of it, these days.

I agree 1000%

[hokie99]

I've been burned way more often by dumbass managers pulling out a starter who's "over" his pitch count than by managers keeping their starters in longer. Pitching sucks, all of it, these days.

kb, I couldn't agree more. I mentioned this in the in game thread on Sunday. I've had multiple occasions where managers pull a starter after 110 pitches only to have the bullpens fully implode and cost the team a win. Case in point, I had Colorado and the under on Sunday vs Pitt. Jiminez was up 4-1 in the 7th, completely dominating the Pirates who had I think 3 hits. So Hurdle pulls him and the Rockies pen allows 7 runs before recording an out! They lost 12-5. So managers would rather worry about a poor starters arm that pitches every 5 days with todays modern medicine than actually winning a game? It's gotten ridiculous. So many pens in baseball just stink.

[PhilJr]

I've been burned way more often by dumbass managers pulling out a starter who's "over" his pitch count than by managers keeping their starters in longer. Pitching sucks, all of it, these days.

Right on the money

[ctt8410]

Why? You watch too much BS on ESPN. Studies have shown limiting pitch count has not reduced the number of arm injuries. Prior to all these so-called specialists, mid-relievers, setup men, starters routinely pitched into 7, 8 and 9th innings.

The bigger problem is the inability of pitchers to consistently throws strikes. Too many batters take them into deep pitch counts thus throwing too many pitchers. At times it seems as if every batter has 3-1 or 3-2 count.

There are also a very large number of studies that support "pitcher abuse points" and show a very steep increase in arm injuries and a short-term loss of effectiveness once a pitcher accumulates a certain number of points over the course of a season. Pitchers used to routinely pitch complete games because there was a greater emphasis on defense over offense, the mound was closer, the parks were larger, more guys pitched to contact, etc. all leading to lower pitch counts.

Millwood going 121 isn't a big deal because he's not a power pitcher and he's shown the ability to run up high pitch counts over his career without negative effects. Jackson at 132 is more noteworthy, but they did it because Zumaya was unavailable and the rest of the Detroit bullpen has been pretty bad this year. It's not disastrous as a one-time deal, but I wouldn't want Leyland making a habit of it.

[frankb03]

There are also a very large number of studies that support "pitcher abuse points" and show a very steep increase in arm injuries and a short-term loss of effectiveness once a pitcher accumulates a certain number of points over the course of a season. Pitchers used to routinely pitch complete games because there was a greater emphasis on defense over offense, the mound was closer, the parks were larger, more guys pitched to contact, etc. all leading to lower pitch counts.

There's always studies supporting both sides. There is pitcher abuse points. While you compare to the games years ago to today's you omitted one factor. Games today are routinely 3-4 hours. Longer games enable pitchers longer rests between innings. Decades ago games were played often played in under 2 hours. High pitch counts in an innings are more harmful than high game pitch counts for the game.

The mound was closer? When? The mound been the same distance. The mound height has changed but it's been the same since 1969 when it was lowered from 15 inches to 10.

IMO the biggest factor to high inning pitch counts and many deep batter counts is the shrinking of the strike zone. Aother factor is the inconsistency of the strike zone. The strike zone not only changes during the game it changes drastically from umpire to umpire.

Below is a good article on the strike zone. This article was written 20 years ago. The strike zone and calling the strike zone has gotten worse.

What Ever Happened To The Strike Zone? - 04.06.87 - SI Vault

[mavskidd02]

Another factor IMO, to high pitch counts is these pitchers with their "out pitches." The guys get to an 0-2 count, and they waste a pitch high, the next one in the dirt, and only 'till 2-2 will they even dare to come back into the strike zone. The guys don't trust their stuff, they need to throw the same pitches on 1-2 as the would on 0-0 because the "waste pitches" add up and are part of the reason these guys can only go 6 innings.

[molta02]

I've been burned way more often by dumbass managers pulling out a starter who's "over" his pitch count than by managers keeping their starters in longer. Pitching sucks, all of it, these days.

[Three Jack]

There are more threads bitching about bullpens and then you want to start your argument b saying "it affects the betting world"? Like managers care about 'the betting world'?!?!?!

[Mark Richt]

There are also a very large number of studies that support "pitcher abuse points" and show a very steep increase in arm injuries and a short-term loss of effectiveness once a pitcher accumulates a certain number of points over the course of a season. Pitchers used to routinely pitch complete games because there was a greater emphasis on defense over offense, the mound was closer, the parks were larger, more guys pitched to contact, etc. all leading to lower pitch counts.

Millwood going 121 isn't a big deal because he's not a power pitcher and he's shown the ability to run up high pitch counts over his career without negative effects. Jackson at 132 is more noteworthy, but they did it because Zumaya was unavailable and the rest of the Detroit bullpen has been pretty bad this year. It's not disastrous as a one-time deal, but I wouldn't want Leyland making a habit of it.

Pithers get hurt not because they have thrown too many pitches. They get hurt do to fatigue which leads to bad mechanics. This early in the year Pitchers should not get tired as a result of throwing too many pitches...especially given the fact that its not yet 90+ degrees outside and humidity should not be a problem. Not to mention that they should be fresh given that the season is still young. If this were the July heat and further along in the season I believe this to be more of an issue. Just my 2 cents