is today the day where we find out how many pitchers a pitcher can make?

[Mark Richt]

Another factor IMO, to high pitch counts is these pitchers with their "out pitches." The guys get to an 0-2 count, and they waste a pitch high, the next one in the dirt, and only 'till 2-2 will they even dare to come back into the strike zone. The guys don't trust their stuff, they need to throw the same pitches on 1-2 as the would on 0-0 because the "waste pitches" add up and are part of the reason these guys can only go 6 innings.

I disagree, I believe there is great strategy in what you call.."a wasted pitch". I do not believe you should give a hitter a perfect pitch with an 0-2 count.

[NEJAKE]

I think it should be left up to the pitcher alot of times, some times when a guy gets pulled a reliever comes in a blows a save and then they show shots of the starter all pissed off on the bench. Pitch counting sucks and if I was manageing I'd talk to my pitcher and trust his judgement if he wanted to remain in the game or not.

[mavskidd02]

I disagree, I believe there is great strategy in what you call.."a wasted pitch". I do not believe you should give a hitter a perfect pitch with an 0-2 count.

No you don't have to give him a perfect pitch. But the pitch you throw should be effective. Not a waste pitch. 90% of the time a starter will throw a 0-2 pitch WAY up in the zone. Pitches that won't be swung at. Next time you watch a game, whenever a pitcher gets to an 0-2 count, watch how many times the count gets back to 2-2. It happens a good % of the time.

IMO, the pitches shouldn't be in the strike zone on 0-2 but they should be placed more effectively than where they are. Every pitch needs to be used effectively, even if its not gonna' be a strike.

[mavskidd02]

I think it should be left up to the pitcher alot of times, some times when a guy gets pulled a reliever comes in a blows a save and then they show shots of the starter all pissed off on the bench. Pitch counting sucks and if I was manageing I'd talk to my pitcher and trust his judgement if he wanted to remain in the game or not.

I think that's a good idea, but then again if that was the case, why even have managers?

[Mark Richt]

No you don't have to give him a perfect pitch. But the pitch you throw should be effective. Not a waste pitch. 90% of the time a starter will throw a 0-2 pitch WAY up in the zone. Pitches that won't be swung at. Next time you watch a game, whenever a pitcher gets to an 0-2 count, watch how many times the count gets back to 2-2. It happens a good % of the time.

IMO, the pitches shouldn't be in the strike zone on 0-2 but they should be placed more effectively than where they are. Every pitch needs to be used effectively, even if its not gonna' be a strike.

The reason it is WAY up in the zone is that they don't want to make a mistake by leaving it belt high. Also, its easier to throw a stike and hit that zone vs. an intentional ball. Think about it......pitchers trained to hit the strike zone not trained to be effiecient in throwing balls.

[mavskidd02]

The reason it is WAY up in the zone is that they don't want to make a mistake by leaving it belt high. Also, its easier to throw a stike and hit that zone vs. an intentional ball. Think about it......pitchers trained to hit the strike zone not trained to be effiecient in throwing balls.

That's exactly my point, they are trained to hit the strike zone. Why not let them do what they are trained to do. And if they had good stuff and got to an 0-2 count, then they ain't doing too bad. I think its stupid when pitchers let batters get back into the count with two balls that are nowhere near the zone. If you look for it and pay close attention to the counts you can find several times in the game where pitchers get an 0-2 or 1-2 count and let the batters work it back to 3-2 counts.

[meaiken]

I think it should be left up to the pitcher alot of times, some times when a guy gets pulled a reliever comes in a blows a save and then they show shots of the starter all pissed off on the bench. Pitch counting sucks and if I was manageing I'd talk to my pitcher and trust his judgement if he wanted to remain in the game or not.

I agree with this. Although I can't see to many pitchers wanting to come out.

I know if I was Santana I would never want to come out and have another great game pitched blown by my pen.

Too many games are blown by a guy who's job it is to pitch 1 inninng.

[frankb03]

I believe there is great strategy in what you call.."a wasted pitch". I do not believe you should give a hitter a perfect pitch with an 0-2 count.

I partially disagree! I believe an 0-2 waste pitch is some unsubstantiated theory from 50+ years ago. Before managers had access to stats and databases. I believe it might have been good strategy decades ago. In today's game I no longer believe it's good strategy. Pitchers don't have the same command they did years ago. I've seen too many 0-2 waste pitch turn into 3-2 counts because of the pitchers inability to consistently throws strikes.

Batting average, albeit slightly, are lower on 0-2 count then 1-2 count .168 vs. .178. Slugging percentage is lower .234 vs .246. Batters strike out 44% with an 0-2 pitch versus 40% on a 1-2 pitch.

I agree with mavskidd02. Too many waste pitches are useless. They're not even close.

[frankb03]

I agree with this. Although I can't see to many pitchers wanting to come out.

I know if I was Santana I would never want to come out and have another great game pitched blown by my pen.

Too many games are blown by a guy who's job it is to pitch 1 inninng.

Most pitchers probably wouldn't want to come out. Instead of using a strict pitch count why not use the radar gun? If a power pitcher starts losing some velocity that's a sign of fatigue.

[frankb03]

For me a 2-1 or 3-2 type of game is more entertaining than a 10-8 game. There's more anxiety with each pitch in a low scoring game. The worst game is when a 3-2 game becomes 8-6 in the 8th and 9th inning. It's just not entertaining watching relievers getting shelled after watching starters pitch their hearts out for 7 or 8 innings. Especially, when the reliever is incapable of throwing strikes.

[kbsooner21]

For me a 2-1 or 3-2 type of game is more entertaining than a 10-8 game. There's more anxiety with each pitch in a low scoring game. The worst game is when a 3-2 game becomes 8-6 in the 8th and 9th inning. It's just not entertaining watching relievers getting shelled after watching starters pitch their hearts out for 7 or 8 innings. Especially, when the reliever is incapable of throwing strikes.

[Chado1]

For me a 2-1 or 3-2 type of game is more entertaining than a 10-8 game. There's more anxiety with each pitch in a low scoring game. The worst game is when a 3-2 game becomes 8-6 in the 8th and 9th inning. It's just not entertaining watching relievers getting shelled after watching starters pitch their hearts out for 7 or 8 innings. Especially, when the reliever is incapable of throwing strikes.

I would love to be able to make millions of dollars piching one inning per day and not even being able to throw strikes. How the fuck can it be your job AT A PROFESSIONAL LEVEL to pitch and yet you cant even throw a fucking baseball straight down the middle. This is the most baffling thing in all of sports IMO...

[ctt8410]

There's always studies supporting both sides. There is pitcher abuse points. While you compare to the games years ago to today's you omitted one factor. Games today are routinely 3-4 hours. Longer games enable pitchers longer rests between innings. Decades ago games were played often played in under 2 hours. High pitch counts in an innings are more harmful than high game pitch counts for the game.

The mound was closer? When? The mound been the same distance. The mound height has changed but it's been the same since 1969 when it was lowered from 15 inches to 10.

IMO the biggest factor to high inning pitch counts and many deep batter counts is the shrinking of the strike zone. Aother factor is the inconsistency of the strike zone. The strike zone not only changes during the game it changes drastically from umpire to umpire.

Below is a good article on the strike zone. This article was written 20 years ago. The strike zone and calling the strike zone has gotten worse.

What Ever Happened To The Strike Zone? - 04.06.87 - SI Vault

I meant to say that the mound used to be higher not closer, but it was 45 feet in the 1800s before being moved to 60'6".

I think the strike zone is more inconsistent nowadays because the pitchers are throwing harder. There's a pretty significant amount of Pitch F/X data available that shows higher velocity pitches are less likely to be called strikes even if they finish at the same spot in the strike zone. To be frank, the pitches nowadays are just more difficult to call with a human eye.

[ctt8410]

Pithers get hurt not because they have thrown too many pitches. They get hurt do to fatigue which leads to bad mechanics. This early in the year Pitchers should not get tired as a result of throwing too many pitches...especially given the fact that its not yet 90+ degrees outside and humidity should not be a problem. Not to mention that they should be fresh given that the season is still young. If this were the July heat and further along in the season I believe this to be more of an issue. Just my 2 cents

I ran 5 miles this morning and now I'm tired even though it was 70 degrees outside and I haven't run that far in a month. My point is, 120 pitches will wear anyone out at any time of the year. Especially the young guys who throw all out on every pitch.

[frankb03]

I think the strike zone is more inconsistent nowadays because the pitchers are throwing harder. There's a pretty significant amount of Pitch F/X data available that shows higher velocity pitches are less likely to be called strikes even if they finish at the same spot in the strike zone. To be frank, the pitches nowadays are just more difficult to call with a human eye.

The same argument that I have for NFL football. The athletes are too big, too fast and well condition to have any sport officiated by 50 and 60 year old men. They need to train full time men in their late 20 and early to mid 30s. Eye sight starts to decline in our early 40s. Why utilize middle to call balls and strikes?

Is there anything more frustrating than watching a catcher setup outside. He's clearly 2 or 3 inches off the plate and because he doesn't move his glove the ump calls a strike.