Tough Night For LeBron and the Cavs

[TheRook]

UNTIL your Savior...the great overhyped James WINS a title, he will, he is and until he does ALWAYS will be a step behind Dwade. You guys amaze me, Do you think these guys play all season for a trip to just "get to the FINALS". You act as if James is going to have multiple trips to the Finals. You know what fellas, NOTHING in life is that predictable. You ask an professional athlete who gets to the Finals if they just say "Oh NO big deal we will be here again"...ask Dan Marino that question, ask Charles Barkley that question, Karl Malone, John Stockton..........you go ahead and try to put Dwade "behind" Lebron, but he HOLDS the ONE thing Lebron is willing to miss the birth of his 2nd child (out of wedlock.....great ROLE model by the way..from a previous thread) a CHAMPIONSHIP!! Now you can go on and on about he is ONLY 22 and he will have multiple Championships by the time he is done. The hardest one to win is that first ONE. And Dwade has DONE THAT, Lebron hasn't and won't this year. And if you think that bunch of "reserves" called the Cavs will make it back next year.....it just shows your ability to be blinded by the hype. I love the standard you set though..........your GREAT before you WIN a thing. Makes it easy for your discussions about who is better!! Point is this, you play to WIN Championships, you play with what you got. Dwade did that and down 0-2 found a way to WIN. In two days, the Savior will be in the SAME predicament, lets see what he does to even the score. Because you can do stats till you die, but here is ONE you can't screw up......
Championships Dwade ONE Savior NONE
Champ MVP Dwade ONE Savior NONE
And it will be that way until Dwade wins again, because unless they GUT the Cavs, that team is winning NOTHING any time soon.................but I know he is ONLY 22 he will get lots of chances to win the FINALS....dreamers!!

So what your saying is that until you win a championship, then and only then can you be considered "great?" and what your saying is that guys like Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone are a step behind Wade because and only because he's won one championship?

I have read three of your posts in this thread and you go off in so many different tangents, it's tough to keep up.

Your bias is obvious, and deep......but i'm failing to see a complete point from you.

And where in any of the above posts did anyone say that Lebron would be here multiple times? I don't see that at all.

[Three Jack]

UNTIL your Savior...

Who in this thread has called him a savior? Can you be more specific please?

[Kaptain]

Three Jack/Rook

Save your valuable and precious breath......By his last post, it's intituively obvious to the "most casual" observer, that he's set in his way, has his mind made up, is obviously a James hater, and will not even consider facts, data, others opinions regarding his stance....

I've seen and encountered, and Supervised many a person with a head as strong as A325 Blue Steel, and trust me, you're not gonna get a decent debate from him....He runs off on tangents, avoids the forwarded question, reads into a paragraph what he wants....

It's his perogative, and he's gonna stand on it.....I'm not gonna waste my time.....and you shouldn't either.....It's like a person at your front door soaking wet with rain, trying to convince you it's not raining.....know what I mean Verne....

You guys can have this topic, and please take him with ya....kapt

[TheRook]

Three Jack/Rook

Save your valuable and precious breath......By his last post, it's intituively obvious to the "most casual" observer, that he's set in his way, has his mind made up, is obviously a James hater, and will not even consider facts, data, others opinions regarding his stance....

I've seen and encountered, and Supervised many a person with a head as strong as A325 Blue Steel, and trust me, you're not gonna get a decent debate from him....He runs off on tangents, avoids the forwarded question, reads into a paragraph what he wants....

It's his perogative, and he's gonna stand on it.....I'm not gonna waste my time.....and you shouldn't either.....It's like a person at your front door soaking wet with rain, trying to convince you it's not raining.....know what I mean Verne....

You guys can have this topic, and please take him with ya....kapt

Well said Kapt on all accounts. I was holding out hope ....but maybe your right.

[Three Jack]

Three Jack/Rook

Save your valuable and precious breath......By his last post, it's intituively obvious to the "most casual" observer, that he's set in his way, has his mind made up, is obviously a James hater, and will not even consider facts, data, others opinions regarding his stance....

I've seen and encountered, and Supervised many a person with a head as strong as A325 Blue Steel, and trust me, you're not gonna get a decent debate from him....He runs off on tangents, avoids the forwarded question, reads into a paragraph what he wants....

It's his perogative, and he's gonna stand on it.....I'm not gonna waste my time.....and you shouldn't either.....It's like a person at your front door soaking wet with rain, trying to convince you it's not raining.....know what I mean Verne....

You guys can have this topic, and please take him with ya....kapt

You are absolutley right Kappy but I enjoy these type of debates...I enjoy reading the double talk and the hypocrisy in the arguments. I understand it will get neither one of us anywhere, he is a die-in-the-wool Wade fan and I enjoy them both for what they both are...the next great generation of NBA players. I wish either one of them played for the Knicks. Oh well.

[soonerbud]

Now Kappy I HAVE ALOT OF RESPECT FOR YOU......but you have NO business saying that I won't listen and that I won't give a "decent debate" trust me my old friend, I can give a decent debate.............I am a lobbyist by trade. So because I refuse to give into the fact that Lebron is better I am wrong and everyone else is right. Please my friend, my opinion holds just as much water (in reference to the rain in your post) as the next guys. However, NO one can tell me that because Lebron has taken a weak Cavs team to the Finals that he is better the Dwade. I am not bias, I just think that all around he is better, but I can't be right, because everyone else except Tmac says otherwise. So in your thinking Kappy, who is better......Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens? I am curious to hear your answer Sir.

[soonerbud]

Oh and Rook, all I needed to know about you is in your avator, what else can you do but hold out for hope? Your a Cubs Fan!

[TwoTonTony]

Now Kappy I HAVE ALOT OF RESPECT FOR YOU......but you have NO business saying that I won't listen and that I won't give a "decent debate" trust me my old friend, I can give a decent debate.............I am a lobbyist by trade. So because I refuse to give into the fact that Lebron is better I am wrong and everyone else is right. Please my friend, my opinion holds just as much water (in reference to the rain in your post) as the next guys. However, NO one can tell me that because Lebron has taken a weak Cavs team to the Finals that he is better the Dwade. I am not bias, I just think that all around he is better, but I can't be right, because everyone else except Tmac says otherwise. So in your thinking Kappy, who is better......Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens? I am curious to hear your answer Sir.

this is nothing more than when someone says a person is wrong they dig their heels in that much more.....

that is all....It is not a slam-dunk-either way...It seems each makes compelling arguments.....You obviously are all intelligent on the topic yet can not agree....So what??? It happens on TNT, ESPN and FOX among people who make their living giving opinions on athletes....It matters not that you are a lobbyist.
It seems to me you are unflexible and are hellbent on making your point....which is fine....As the others are on making theirs...

No biggie....2 good/great up and comers...tough to compare....numbers are similar.....1 has a title and a dominant center.......1 does not have a title.....1 cries and needs a wheelchair for a shoulder seperation.....1 does not.....(just kidding...just never understood a wheelchair for a shoulder injury).......

My point is this is an argument that there is no clear cut answer.....depends how you view it.....from which angle.....stats/titles.....more with less.....less with more....


i think now would be a good time for someone to tell me who can outgun sebastian telfair in the NBA.....i know Tank Johnson can...but i want a hoop player who can shoot a 3 and then 2 hours later shoot a glock

[Kaptain]

soonerbud

Now Kappy I HAVE ALOT OF RESPECT FOR YOU......but you have NO business saying that I won't listen and that I won't give a "decent debate" trust me my old friend, I can give a decent debate.............I am a lobbyist by trade. So because I refuse to give into the fact that Lebron is better I am wrong and everyone else is right. Please my friend, my opinion holds just as much water (in reference to the rain in your post) as the next guys. However, NO one can tell me that because Lebron has taken a weak Cavs team to the Finals that he is better the Dwade. I am not bias, I just think that all around he is better, but I can't be right, because everyone else except Tmac says otherwise. So in your thinking Kappy, who is better......Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemens? I am curious to hear your answer Sir.

I'm not saying you're wrong or right.....The others say in their opinion, you're more emphatic, as if you can't be wrong......You put all the emphasis on the Ring Wade has....The NBA players themselves say James is better.....Course, you being a retired NBA player, in the hall of Fame at that, would know better.........

This is a argument that only years will answer, and even then, it's gonna be arguable.....

As for your Question, re Ryan vs Clemens, I know your answer, your's is Clemens cause he has the almighty ring.....Well in my opinion, 7 no hitters, strike out reords, overall won loss, IMO, I say Ryan is better.....course that and many other comparisons in BaseBall are debatable......

You say you're a lobbyist, and used to debates, well thags fine, but when you're lobbying, you're trying to promote you beliefs, your thoughts, or what ever it is you're paid to lobby for.....

Big difference when it's a debate with open minded people who are not promoting anyone, anything for monetary gain, just opinions, and these kind of people tend to have more flexability in being convinced you may "just be wrong"....But glad to told me you were a lobbyist, that explains the attitude to me....

I also respect everyone, but don't like when it's a debate/argument about a subject, and one side is emphatic about his/hwer views, and not remotely open to the idea that things could be other than one visualizes....

You have your opinion, as stated, I and others have ours......They're different, and only time will tell who the better player is now, or will be in the future.......

It's just another of the Sports arguments, regarding either 2 current playsers as to who is better, and it gets more complex, when it's a currnet playser vs an older legend......

Chamberlain, Russel, Mika, Shaq, Duncan----NBA centers---which one

Robertson, Maravich, Wade, James, Bryant, Cousy----Guards---which one


You could go on and on.....I'm 65 years old have seen many generations of players in all sports, doesn't make me and authority, or my opinion any better than yours on comparing current players....But gives me an advantage on Old vs current....do you agree with thag statement....

PS---for my own mind----how old are you....

No problem here with me, regarding difference of opinion, I'll let it go at that.....I'll keep and believe in my mind, who I think is best, and you're entitled to the same.....

IMO----James is better.....NBA players opinions----James is better----stats pretty even----Wade 2 years older than James....Wade had/has better support to make him better than James....these are all my OPINIONS only, could be wrong, just not as emphaticly correct as you are....

And I'm not "lobbying" for James, just my opinion.....kapt

Thertefore, to keep harmony, and utilize my time more constructively, regarding this subject, and your opinion, I will

[TheRook]

Oh and Rook, all I needed to know about you is in your avator, what else can you do but hold out for hope? Your a Cubs Fan!

I am so lost.

What does my Avatar have to do with a debate
on Wade vs Lebron?

[TheRook]

I'm not saying you're wrong or right.....The others say in their opinion, you're more emphatic, as if you can't be wrong......You put all the emphasis on the Ring Wade has....The NBA players themselves say James is better.....Course, you being a retired NBA player, in the hall of Fame at that, would know better.........

This is a argument that only years will answer, and even then, it's gonna be arguable.....

As for your Question, re Ryan vs Clemens, I know your answer, your's is Clemens cause he has the almighty ring.....Well in my opinion, 7 no hitters, strike out reords, overall won loss, IMO, I say Ryan is better.....course that and many other comparisons in BaseBall are debatable......

You say you're a lobbyist, and used to debates, well thags fine, but when you're lobbying, you're trying to promote you beliefs, your thoughts, or what ever it is you're paid to lobby for.....

Big difference when it's a debate with open minded people who are not promoting anyone, anything for monetary gain, just opinions, and these kind of people tend to have more flexability in being convinced you may "just be wrong"....But glad to told me you were a lobbyist, that explains the attitude to me....

I also respect everyone, but don't like when it's a debate/argument about a subject, and one side is emphatic about his/hwer views, and not remotely open to the idea that things could be other than one visualizes....

You have your opinion, as stated, I and others have ours......They're different, and only time will tell who the better player is now, or will be in the future.......

It's just another of the Sports arguments, regarding either 2 current playsers as to who is better, and it gets more complex, when it's a currnet playser vs an older legend......

Chamberlain, Russel, Mika, Shaq, Duncan----NBA centers---which one

Robertson, Maravich, Wade, James, Bryant, Cousy----Guards---which one


You could go on and on.....I'm 65 years old have seen many generations of players in all sports, doesn't make me and authority, or my opinion any better than yours on comparing current players....But gives me an advantage on Old vs current....do you agree with thag statement....

PS---for my own mind----how old are you....

No problem here with me, regarding difference of opinion, I'll let it go at that.....I'll keep and believe in my mind, who I think is best, and you're entitled to the same.....

IMO----James is better.....NBA players opinions----James is better----stats pretty even----Wade 2 years older than James....Wade had/has better support to make him better than James....these are all my OPINIONS only, could be wrong, just not as emphaticly correct as you are....

And I'm not "lobbying" for James, just my opinion.....kapt

Thertefore, to keep harmony, and utilize my time more constructively, regarding this subject, and your opinion, I will

You and I could debate the Ryan vs Clemens matchup at a later time, cause I think Clemens is hands down! lol

Good reply though Kapt...I think your point was made very well. Especially considering the answers we got.

[soonerbud]

Kappy, I am 45 and like you have seen many GREAT players come and go. Obviously not as many as you, as time would have allowed you to see more.
I think that part of the problem with this debate, started in threads that you were not in. Many original problem with this whole debate was that after ONE big game, the threads started coming out how "Lebron has arrived", and the fact that he scored so many points in a 2 OT game that he had done something special.
Personally, I have seen many performance better then his. My whole stance on the whole subject has been that WHO else was going to take those shots? The Cavs are horrible, his supporting cast are scared to death. It doesn't seem that incredible to me that he would take all the shots down the stretch.
I have always felt he was overhyped.......what has he REALLY done?? But you are right, time will tell, and even then there will be debate.
Honestly, I just love to throw things out there and watch peoples "feathers get ruffled". I would not have even talked about it this long, but it is sooo much fun to watch people jump in and give their two cents worth. People react in most cases just like you think they will.........WHY? Because they think they are right.
I do not come here to make everyone know I am right. I come here to make $$$$. Actually, I come here to see what Wayne, Baseball Dave and others pick nightly. But I could care less who everybody thinks is the best.......to me like you said that is opinion. I am here for ONE reason, to WIN and make some $$$$. Thats it, the rest is just "toying" around when I have time. Oh and to get KB to make stupid 5-1 wagers on the CAVS for a C note..........

[soonerbud]

Oh in Kappy in regards to your answer.......that is the answer I knew you would give as well. But there in NO doubt that Clemens is the greatest modern day pitcher alive. In fact, Clemens is probably the 3rd best pitcher EVER behind Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove. The difference between me and so many others here which really surprises me. I am about winning and not about alot of stats and strikeouts. You play the game for ONE reason to Win. And Clemens has done that better then anyone in the modern age. Its like saying Randy Johnson and Clemens are in the same class.........just like the Finals this year....mismatch!

[Kaptain]

soonerbud

Oh in Kappy in regards to your answer.......that is the answer I knew you would give as well. But there in NO doubt that Clemens is the greatest modern day pitcher alive. In fact, Clemens is probably the 3rd best pitcher EVER behind Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove. The difference between me and so many others here which really surprises me. I am about winning and not about alot of stats and strikeouts. You play the game for ONE reason to Win. And Clemens has done that better then anyone in the modern age. Its like saying Randy Johnson and Clemens are in the same class.........just like the Finals this year....mismatch!

Lets just take this last reply you made.......

not IMO, but.................there is NO doubt that Clemens is the greates modern day pitcher alive...........emphatic, and the stats back that up........

Modern day pitchers with games WON
Clemens............348
Maddux.............338
Glavine.............295
Johnson............283.........so for now your statement is correct....Maddux knocking on the door.......so it's not like he's walking away with it, as you're trying to illustrate...

statement...........in fact Clemens is probably the 3rd best pitcher EVER behind Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove.............

statement........I am about winning and not a lot of stats.......

Well lets look at some winning stats........3rd best of all time.....Biased opinion, or FACT....

Winningest Pitchers in MLB
Cy Young 511----you failed to mention him #1
Walter Johnson 417 #2
Christy Mathewson 373 #3 no mention of him
Grover Alexander 373 #3 tied no mention of him
Jim Galvin 364 #5 no mention of him
Warren Spahn 363 #6....one of my favorites---you also failed to mention him
Kid Nichols #7 no mention of him---you probably never heard of him....just a stat in the record book

Roger Clemens #8...........big gap between 3 and 8.....IMO

you also mention Clemens as behind Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove, well, Lefty Grove is # 21 with 300 wins.....

And you, yourself siad you base this on Winning games....

Well my man, here's some stastical facts for ya.....Not Opinions....and yet you still EMPHATICLY make your statements....

Thats what I have a problem with SoonerBud...Emphaticly arrogant statements, as to elude to/infer one can't be wrong, well statisticly you're wrong, had you simply and humbly said IMO, before or after your statement, I would have never replied.............

That's why I said IMO, I think Ryan is better than Clemens, statistics for Winning games, don't support that, and you're all about winning, so therefore you could be right....

But much like James vs Wade, I look at the support Ryan had vs Clemens, and the 7 no hitters, and all the strikeouts, I would take Ryan before Clemens if I was starting a team afresh at their rookie years, as I would take James before Wade witt the same scenario.....

I guess all I'm asking is try to put your Opinion out there a little more humbly, rather than so arrogantly/can't be wrong attitude......

Time will tell about James vs Wade, as well as the possibility of Maddux passing up Clemens in the win column, and then you can say Clemens is still the 3rd best pitcher ever....

Best to ya Sooner----give em hell here, as I know you're capable of, and you'll get a lots of em riled up, and then you and the rest can have fun.....Not me....

Kaptain