Poll Question for Red Sox Fans

[savage1]

I know it is Christmas (first and foremost Merry Christmas/Happy Chanukah everyone!), and most of you have other things to think about;thus,take your time if you care to answer this:

With the recent move/ defection (whatever want to call it) of Joh nny Damon as well as other departures since 2004 from sox such as Pedro Martinez, Lowe, Cabrera, Renteria, Myers, Muellar, Millar, probably Manny and of course GM Theo Epstein, there is a swirling controversy as to who should shoulder the blame for all of this-the players, the agents, CEO Lucchino, or whether all are to blame equally.
The net result of this is that Sox are no where as near as strong as they were during the championship season of 2004.
My question is why do you think so many players have left the Sox after winning the WS and/or who do you blame?
You can answer simply by giving an answer of 1) players, 2) agents, 3) players and agents equal, 4) owners, 5) All of abover equally
You can of course elaborate on your answer also.
ps Anyone can actually answer this even if you are not a Sox fan but feel you have a good understanding of what is happening with the Sox.
I will defer my answer until later.
Any takers?

[jordanrules23]

obviously its the CEO.....

[TwoTonTony]

i think the sox have taken a hardball stance and one of arrogance and i think the players know there is no allegiance....except to varitek they showed it.....lowe knew he was being shown the door, pedro i think was partially his fault but management let him go because they were smug since schilling was here....i think the ceo is an astute businessman who has made vast improvements to the park and revenue, but i think he may have missed the bus here....unless of course he is just after more money now......lower payroll and fenway will always sell out....many of us have heard that we are now satisfied since we saw them win...fuck that i want more.....but it will most likely have to wait.....i honestly was brought up liking the uniform, but have not respected the team in a long time......although i hated the yanks i applauded their professionalism and never wasa fan of the rag tag and idiot monikor/mentality shown by the sox....it almost looks as the sox have no plan and are in a reactionary mode, with no clue....i have heard lugo at short or cora/graf. platoon....what the heck was wrong with renteria???he had 1 bad year......who will play centerfield, 1st base???? youkilis is not proven......going to be tough to compete with the yanks and the bluejays have not been standing still either...

[jordanrules23]

they offered more money to AJ bUrnett than to pedro what sense did that make???

[savage1]

Here are first my thoughts on this matter;I posted this before in the Red Sox forum:
In the next post which follows I am going to post a great and profound post written by someone else on the Sox forum.
Here first are my thoughts first:


Being roughly the same age of Lucchino, which in effect means I have been around the block a few times and have an idea as to how influence people's thinking, I can see exactly what he did with Pedro and Damon and probably to a lesser extent with some of the other players who left;its all about perception.
One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out-simply throw out what it appears to be a really great offer on the table, which makes it appear you "really" want to sign someone.
Deep down inside you don't really want the player back and you know the current market value is higher, and that he will be snapped up by someone else.
The whole point is to create the public perception that you(in this case Lucchino) really tried, but that the player(s) (Damon, Martinez, Lowe, Cabrera, Mueller, Millar, Myers, etc.) are all a bunch of greedy players, and that they(the players) are the ones to blame.
And then of course along the way, you tick off Manny by making him feel unwelcome and let your GM walk knowing well that most of the players like and respect him, which in effect will make even fewer high priced players want to play or remain here; of course to soften the blow you replace him with not one GM but 2 GM's(double your pleasure);of course these GM's are under your tight control and will NEVER speak out of turn, but most importantly they have been taught to say the right things at the right time to keep the fans happy.
Of course all of this is done in stages and slowly-you know the adage, "Slow and steady wins the race" so as not to make most of the public aware as what you are up to and what you REALLY want to do(dismantle the team and make more money for yourself)..
Sure you must also do other things to appear you are trying-so you pick up players like Beckett along the way to appease everyone, and the masses are happy and the optimism is once again there.
Then of course if Sox don't make the playoffs but have a reasonably good year and the ballpark is sold out every night, then what more can you ask for.?
Well, actually there is: my woudn't it be nice if players like Ortiz, not satisfied with the season, ask to be traded also? Then of course, you can throw up your hands once again and say "Well folks its not our fault that he no longer wants to play here." and of course we will accommodate his wishes.
Again, what do you(Lucchino) care though? You know Fenway will always be sold out;you raised ticket prices in 2006 and know you can do it again in 2007, etc.
Should you be cynical?-you betcha. Just look at how many players have left the team so far since 2004(and probably Manny next) and ask yourself if ALL of them are no good greedy traitorous jerks OR on the other hand maybe just maybe Mr. Lucchino might be at least a "little" bit of the cause for the negative turn of events.

Edited 12/25/2005 11:49 am ET by elysse2

[savage1]

Here is the post written by someone else on the Sox furm:

From: jimyhow Dec-25 7:42 pm
To: ALL (1 of 29)

157744.1

Help me with the logic here:

The Sox, according to the Herald this week, were trying to get Glaus before he ended up going to Toronto.

Don't we already have a third baseman in the washed up Mike Lowell, who we are already overpaying to the tune of $18 million?

So we traded Hanley Ramirez-- a shortstop who is one of the top rated minor leaguers in all of the minor leagues-- as part of the Josh Beckett deal. Fine. You've gotta give something to get something.

But then, a week later, we basically gave away Renteria-- heck, PAID an extra $11 million for the Braves to take him-- for a minor league prospect?

So we ended up paying edgar $21 million to play one year for the Red Sox-- i.e., more than what Manny Ramirez earns in one year.

And when the dust settles, the Red Sox-- now rid of Hanley and edgar-- have, um, NO shortstop, less than three months away from spring training.

Now, this team that has NO shortstop... GAVE the braves $11 million to take its remaining shortstop.

$11 million is just about the same amount the Yankees outbid the Sox for ****** Damon ($12 mil)-- perhaps the premier leadoff hitter in the league.

****** Damon-- perhaps the most popular Sox player, a guy who showed up every day. A guy who, although a goofball, was friendly, signed autographs, threw balls into the monster seats, did interviews (even in bad times). A guy who, in the 2003 playoffs after a horific collision resulting in a severe concussion, came back to play-- and played well-- against the Yankees in one of the most emotional series in the history of baseball. ****** Damon, perhaps the "heart and soul" of "The Idiots," the 2004 Boston Red Sox team that, arguably, is the greatest sports story-- EVER-- in ANY sport-- in the HISTORY of sports. ****** Damon, whose grandslam in yankee Stadium in Game 7 of the 2004 ALCs was probably my single greatest thrill as a sports fan ( I was right there, in the upper deck just above homeplate-- watching scheffield look up into the rightfield lower deck as the ball nestled in after Vasquez's first pitch-- I get goose bumps today just thinking about it.)

****** Damon.
Like Pedro, and Nomar, and Theo, and Billy Mueller, and soon Manny-- ****** is gone. Because the sox owners were a penny wise and a pound foolsh.

****** wasn't worth the extra $12 million. Instead, it was better for us to GIVE that money to Atlanta, so they could take our last remaining shortstop.

Shortstop and centerfield-- hmmm, a couple of FAIRLY important positions up the middle, unfilled, here on Christmas day, as we sit here.

So ****** is a "traitor." His wife is a "whor.e". ******, apparently, was not worth $3 million less than the $55 million BJ Ryan got. He's not worth $2 million more than the $50 million AJ Burnett got.

To be honest, I didnt think that $52 million over four years was some out of the universe deal for JD, who is going to be an "ancient" 35 years old when the contract is up.

Scott Boras has certainly negtiated much better deals for lesser players.

I guess the extra $12 million offered by the Yanks wasn't worth all of the revenues brought into Fenway by the pink shirts, the concessions, the souvenirs, generated by ****** from his cult following.

The Sox ownership, led by Larry Lucchino and John Henry-- two characters with very controversial pasts in Baltimore, San Diego, and florida-- could not even keep Theo Epstein-- a kid who grew up down the street and had his dream job.

Larry Lucchino and John Henry-- while they were dumping ******-- while they were dumping renteria-- while they were TAKING ON the huge albatross $18 million contract of the weak hitting Mike Lowell-- let go of Billy Mueller-- one of the most favorite players amongst fans and teammates-- an absolute class act-- a guy who hit .300 during his years in Boston, who produced some of the biggest clutch hits in team history (dave robert stole that base, god love him, but someonme STILL had to get a hit off of the unhittable Mariano Rivera, to knock him in-- and that person was Billy Mueller). Billy mueller, who-- the horror-- was looking for a two-year contract-- a TWO year contract-- for less than half that being paid to Mike Lowell.

They dumped Nomar, who gave his heart and soul to the team and the community for eight years, and was hitting a team-leading .321 on the day he was traded-- and then Lucchino and Henry proceeded to SMEAR him on the way out of town, a smear job the likes we may have never seen in the history of Boston sports.

Then they got rid of Pedro Martinez-- a guy who, in seven years of pitching in the AL East, pitching half his games at hitter friendly Fenway Park, in the league of the DH, during the era of steroids, small ballparks, and juiced baseballs-- produced seven years of pitching unmatched perhaps by NO other pitcher in the 100-year HISTORY of the sport. they let Pedro go to the Mets for-- the horror-- a four year contract-- when they could have had him for THREE years the year before. This is the same Pedro, of course, who has basically not missed a start in the past two years.

Red sox "fans" here on redsox.com, and WEEI, and through a lot of the Nation drank Larry Lucchino's koolaid, and went along with the smear of the players who actually produced the 2004 championship victory.

Give ****** an extra $12 million during a year when it is a players market and the Yankees are in dire need of a centerfielder? Heck, no. Let's let ****** Henry and Tom Werner keep that money, because these carpetbag worm owners can take it and invest/earn more money in their enterprises in movies, NASCAR, and hotels. Give the money to ******, who crushed Yankees hearts with his grandslam in '04? He..ll no, I want the revenues from my $130 tickets going into the pockets of billionaire John Henry instead!

******'s wife is a whor.e, man, because ****** took $12 mil more in the free market to play for the Yanks.

The BILLION dollar business that is the Boston red Sox is being managed by a couple of co-GMs in their TWENTIES-- along with Larry Lucchino-- this worm who, in one of the darkest days in Red Sox history after the yanks signing of ****** Damon-- arrogantly professed that the team was "trying to accomodate" Manny ramirez-- the best right handed hitter in the league, an indispensable part of the team's success-- in Manny's request to leave-- rather than, of course, trying to see what the team can do to accomodate the quirky and moody-- but highly-productive, Hall-of-Fame bound Ramirez-- in an effort to keep him.

For several years, a few of us have attempted to point out the dishonesty of this carpetbagging, out of town ownership group.

Those who dared not to drink the koolaid were reviled, ridiculed, and banned.

These arbitragers basically have ruined every team with which they've been associated before (except for the Yankees, with whom John Henry has held a minority interest), why did you not think they would ruin this team?

Why did you not think john Henry's "fantasy baseball" approach to running a team-- an approach from a guy who HIMSELF has questioned whether HE HIMSELF is qualified to run a team-- might not fail?

And now, the incompetence and dishones...[Message truncated]
ps The xxxxed out word is Joh nny.

[frankb03]

The players are to blame. No loyalty.

[TheRook]

Savage, what red sox forum to you go to? I'd love to mingle there. Not sure if you can put it on here or not...don't want to get anyone in trouble. Just curious.


And my opinion...I think it's the upper brass. I think they underestimated the way guys like Damon would react to not being a top proirity.

[savage1]

Rook-I don't see any problem with posting it as it has nothing to do with gambling. Just go to redsox.com, register and then to message boards. My posting name over there is Elysse2. There are a lot of different and controversial threads over there-right up my alley.

[savage1]

Frank-I respect (as usual) your opinion;do you feel owners should be responsible for any of the blame, or is it all 100% the players' fault?

[TwoTonTony]

The players are to blame. No loyalty.

it is a two way street...this is not the 70's when teams stayed together..and let's not be naive either....if damon did not hold his end of the bargain up and the sox had away to get rid of him they would....it is BIG BUSINESS......no more no less....It is not about what it used to be about....we all would like it to be, but those days are gone.....If a rival company were to give you an extra 30% in your salary and the working conditions were just as good if not better, would you go??? most would regardless of loyalty....and loyalty is a 2 way street......The Red Sox may have tried to play the loyalty card, but by the same token were not willing to pay the going rate.....I do not blame the players.....They are merely playing the market as it was set up by the owners.......

[wayne1218]

I am now a Yankees fan!!!!!!!!

[Blackbeard]

I am now a Yankees fan!!!!!!!!

A pig just flew by my window on its way to the frozen over hell!!!!!!

[The Lovedoc]

I am now a Yankees fan!!!!!!!!

Atta boy!! Your always welcome over here wayne!!!