Roger Clemens Might Have Been Caught on Film at the Canseco Party

[BettorsChat]

I do think he "Was" (Before Steroids), a great pitcher. Just like i think Barry Bonds was a great player. What's your point? They both threw their fucken careers away by lying, cheating and being scumbags. They could have had it all but .....

What's my point? I already stated it in this thread.

Prior to 1998 the man was great. If he had gotten hurt he was a lock to the HOF. Nobody knows if he was cheating prior to 98. And as you said in that other thread:

"Nobody disputes he was a great pitcher, many think he just needed help to keep at that level when he got older."

So what I'm getting blasted by is that I'm saying he was something special prior to 98 because there is no proof that he did illegal steroids or HGH prior to 98. Even you admitted that in your quote.

[BettorsChat]

Where oh where did i say this. Please Monte, TELL me!

Can you not read???????????????????????????????????????

I gave you the link

One more time wayne:

http://www.bettorschat.com/forums/sh...=142511&page=7

Post 122 & 123

[wayne1218]

Can you not read???????????????????????????????????????

I gave you the link

One more time wayne:

http://www.bettorschat.com/forums/sh...=142511&page=7

Post 122 & 123

Your unbelieveable. What am i chuck lazar? WTF .......

[BettorsChat]

that is a really stupid statement. he won 3 mvps and 8 gold gloves pre-juice, and had 400+hrs/steals.

Check your #'s again

[BettorsChat]

Your unbelieveable. What am i chuck lazar? WTF .......

You're calling me out that you didn't say that.

So WTF is that link with your post?

[wayne1218]

You're calling me out that you didn't say that.

So WTF is that link with your post?

Monte i'm done talking about it. That post/link you posted doesn't come close to me saying what you said i did. If you are going to put words in my mouth that i never said than it's not worth fucken arguing over. The only person who people should feel bad for is Dan Duquette cuz he actually did know what he was talking about back in the day. Who knew the cheating, lying fuck would prove dan wrong with drugs. Congrats Roger, you are truly my hero.

[BettorsChat]

Monte i'm done talking about it. That post/link you posted doesn't come close to me saying what you said i did. If you are going to put words in my mouth that i never said than it's not worth fucken arguing over. The only person who people should feel bad for is Dan Duquette cuz he actually did know what he was talking about back in the day. Who knew the cheating, lying fuck would prove dan wrong with drugs. Congrats Roger, you are truly my hero.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore either as its a waste of time.

[molta02]

Check your #'s again

??????????

started juicing '99.

my numbers add up

[BettorsChat]

??????????

started juicing '99.

my numbers add up

I'm going back to 98 so the 400 HR's dont add up. And personally I think he was juicing before then.

[BillMill71]

You know I am really sick of the whole HGH/Steroids thing. It really is a waste of time, money and breath.

Yup, they are "cheaters", so what, they are also morons. Once again who cares. The majority of them where doing it, so it was one juiced up guy against the next. Once again, who cares.

So a juiced up Clemens (Insert any other name here) was throwing a pitch to Canseco (Insert any other name here).

This doesn't relate to what I was saying but a little story. I went to college and played football where half my team was on steroids. My room mate shot up constantly, most of my friends, etc... Guess what? I tossed their asses around in practice like rag dolls. Juiced up, working out three times a day, popping each others pimples, juiced up freaks. Getting tossed around by a guy who refused to touch the stuff. So to be honest with you I really don't buy into the whole steroid thing, it is overated.

[wayne1218]

Bill, MLB said way back when that if 5% tested positive, they would change their drug policies. Over 5% tested positive but it wasn't above 10%. The Mitchell report named what ... 60, 70 or 80 names? Do you know how many thousands have played in the MLB in the last 10 years? That % would come close to matching the number who tested positive. Even if you call it 10% or even 20% for those not mentioned, that is still 1 in 10 or 1 in 5. I'm not sure how that constitutes the majority. To me it is a crime to take away from those who actually accomplished alot or had great careers without HGH or steroids. That is why i'm not willing to bunch them all as one because i believe MANY did not use. Just because many are doing something wrong and not just 1 or 2, it certainly doesn't make it right.

[GrandPa]

Hindsight is of course 20/20, but if Roger could do it all over again, a better strategy may have been to implicate MLB in general and Bud Selig specifically, by stating that there was no testing, it wasn't against the rules, and everyone else was doing it, and yes, he was in the same group.

Not an honorable way to handle things, but I daresay moreso than the route he chose.

Being a rich bully has apparently convinced him he could get away with anything, and having his ass kissed and hero-worshipped only created a bigger monster ( well, that and the HGH).

I tell you who must be loving this is Peter Edward Rose and Orenthal James Simpson ( who incidentally have both done jail time). IMO Pet Rose betting on games, and on his own team, is far less a crime against the game than getting a physical edge through chemistry.

[BillMill71]

Bill, MLB said way back when that if 5% tested positive, they would change their drug policies. Over 5% tested positive but it wasn't above 10%. The Mitchell report named what ... 60, 70 or 80 names? Do you know how many thousands have played in the MLB in the last 10 years? That % would come close to matching the number who tested positive. Even if you call it 10% or even 20% for those not mentioned, that is still 1 in 10 or 1 in 5. I'm not sure how that constitutes the majority. To me it is a crime to take away from those who actually accomplished alot or had great careers without HGH or steroids. That is why i'm not willing to bunch them all as one because i believe MANY did not use. Just because many are doing something wrong and not just 1 or 2, it certainly doesn't make it right.

Understand what you are saying, but Wayne you have to realize, the NCAA tested us randomly twice to three times a year, my teamates just cycled AROUND it. Over 40 guys on it, and O PERCENT got caught. Throw in HGH which cannot be caught, and other ones drugs that you (and most of us) don't even know the name and the usage explodes. The Mitchell report was a farce. MLB/NCAA/NFL testing can only catch the morons, and having to listen to them go on about the changes is sickening TO ME. Sorry, but It is not 5% - 20% of these guys that were on it, it was and IS way more. I understand about the guys that did not do it, I was one of them, you don't have to feel bad for them, they don't feel bad, they made their choice and believe me they succeded more then they failed against the users, believe me these things do not make them superhuman. But regardless, I know it is not right, but it happens. Things that are not right happen to me and everyone everyday, don't care about this one the most.

You know most of time I stay out of these types of conversations, but couldn't help it this time

[molta02]

Hindsight is of course 20/20, but if Roger could do it all over again, a better strategy may have been to implicate MLB in general and Bud Selig specifically, by stating that there was no testing, it wasn't against the rules, and everyone else was doing it, and yes, he was in the same group.

Not an honorable way to handle things, but I daresay moreso than the route he chose.

Being a rich bully has apparently convinced him he could get away with anything, and having his ass kissed and hero-worshipped only created a bigger monster ( well, that and the HGH).

I tell you who must be loving this is Peter Edward Rose and Orenthal James Simpson ( who incidentally have both done jail time). IMO Pet Rose betting on games, and on his own team, is far less a crime against the game than getting a physical edge through chemistry.

[GrandPa]

The point is that we must consider the seriousness of the "crimes" committed, and the punishment served for each, to keep it all in perspective.