Who Has the Best 1-2 Punch in Baseball?

[Three Jack]

And neither are you.
More importantly, that is why Theo has done such a great job with the Sox-he realizes for the most part who can get it done in Boston and who cannot(two World Series since 2004 after 86 years of failure will attest to that).

Please...'realizes who can get it done in Boston'? Then why has just about every major free agent signing he has made not worked out...isn't that where that knowledge comes into play? Theo is one of the best because of the way he has stockpiled the system with young talent...and when drafting 17, 18 and 19 year olds, you have little idea whether they will be able to 'handle' Boston. Give him props for Beckett but you want to give him credit for knowing he could win in Boston? He had just pitched a complete game shutout in the WS as a Marlin IN Yankee Stadium...who didn't know that? Theo has made strong trades and does a very good job of not overpaying for his veterans who are FA's just out of loyalty. But he has warts like everyone else even if you do not want to see them.

[savage1]

Please...'realizes who can get it done in Boston'? Then why has just about every major free agent signing he has made not worked out...isn't that where that knowledge comes into play? Theo is one of the best because of the way he has stockpiled the system with young talent...and when drafting 17, 18 and 19 year olds, you have little idea whether they will be able to 'handle' Boston. Give him props for Beckett but you want to give him credit for knowing he could win in Boston? He had just pitched a complete game shutout in the WS as a Marlin IN Yankee Stadium...who didn't know that? Theo has made strong trades and does a very good job of not overpaying for his veterans who are FA's just out of loyalty. But he has warts like everyone else even if you do not want to see them.

He has done a lot more right than wrong-two World Series since 2004-what other team can say that?
How about signing David Ortiz and letting Nomar go for Cabrera in 2004-I seriously doubt Sox would have won the WS in those years without those brilliant moves.
Sue he has mad horrible moves with Lugo being the prime example;my point is he is a "has" as opposed to a "has not" as far as having a sense of who to pursue as sign and who not to sign and for assembling a winning team with a great chance to get to the WS.
PS I would give just as much credit to the Sox scouting system as Theo for signing the young kids you cite.

[kbsooner21]

Please...'realizes who can get it done in Boston'? Then why has just about every major free agent signing he has made not worked out...isn't that where that knowledge comes into play? Theo is one of the best because of the way he has stockpiled the system with young talent...and when drafting 17, 18 and 19 year olds, you have little idea whether they will be able to 'handle' Boston. Give him props for Beckett but you want to give him credit for knowing he could win in Boston? He had just pitched a complete game shutout in the WS as a Marlin IN Yankee Stadium...who didn't know that? Theo has made strong trades and does a very good job of not overpaying for his veterans who are FA's just out of loyalty. But he has warts like everyone else even if you do not want to see them.

[Three Jack]

He has done a lot more right than wrong-two World Series since 2004-what other team can say that?
How about signing David Ortiz and letting Nomar go for Cabrera in 2004-I seriously doubt Sox would have won the WS in those years without those brilliant moves.
Sue he has mad horrible moves with Lugo being the prime example;my point is he is a "has" as opposed to a "has not" as far as having a sense of who to pursue as sign and who not to sign and for assembling a winning team with a great chance to get to the WS.
PS I would give just as much credit to the Sox scouting system as Theo for signing the young kids you cite.

Savage, he has done way more right then wrong and is one of the top 3 in baseball...that wasn't your statement. You are basically doing the circle jerk over the guy because he 'knows who to bring into Boston'. They won in 2004 more because of the guys who were brought in before him (Pedro/Manny) than who he brought in. 2007 was, imo, home grown for the most part. Give him huge props for Ortiz AND Schilling. But for everyone one of those, there is an Eric Gagne or Wily Mo Pena trade. But, my bad AND yours as Beckett/Lowell trade was completed during his hiatus, so he gets NO PROPS for that trade. He HAD to dump Nomar (do we need to rehash how he sat on the bench and sulked in the Yankee Stadium dugout during the extra inning game in june as Jeter is making head long dives into the fourth row?) for all the same reasons he had to dump Manny and he got value for value. And, let me remind you, Theo let Cabrera walk because he wanted Renteria so bad!

I'll let you grade his major Free Agent signings:
Dice K +
Matt Clement - - -
Mike Timlin + +
Bill Mueller +
Julio Lugo - - -
Edgar Renteria ---
JD Drew -
Mike Lowell this past off season 0
Okajima +
JC Romero - -
Joel Piniero - - -

My point is that what Theo has given them is a farm system, probably the best in baseball, and that has very little to do with 'who can play in Boston'....

[savage1]

Savage, he has done way more right then wrong and is one of the top 3 in baseball...that wasn't your statement. You are basically doing the circle jerk over the guy because he 'knows who to bring into Boston'. They won in 2004 more because of the guys who were brought in before him (Pedro/Manny) than who he brought in. 2007 was, imo, home grown for the most part. Give him huge props for Ortiz AND Schilling. But for everyone one of those, there is an Eric Gagne or Wily Mo Pena trade. But, my bad AND yours as Beckett/Lowell trade was completed during his hiatus, so he gets NO PROPS for that trade. He HAD to dump Nomar (do we need to rehash how he sat on the bench and sulked in the Yankee Stadium dugout during the extra inning game in june as Jeter is making head long dives into the fourth row?) for all the same reasons he had to dump Manny and he got value for value. And, let me remind you, Theo let Cabrera walk because he wanted Renteria so bad!

I'll let you grade his major Free Agent signings:
Dice K +
Matt Clement - - -
Mike Timlin + +
Bill Mueller +
Julio Lugo - - -
Edgar Renteria ---
JD Drew -
Mike Lowell this past off season 0
Okajima +
JC Romero - -
Joel Piniero - - -

My point is that what Theo has given them is a farm system, probably the best in baseball, and that has very little to do with 'who can play in Boston'....

I agree to a point, but we are not talking necessarily quantity and opposed to quality.
Also, as you say he let Cabrera walk(and that was a HUGE mistake in my opinion), but the bottom line is he did enough with his moves to get it done and acquired Cabrera in the first place(without whom they might not have won the WS, which is the goal in all of this) and win two WS for Sox, something which hadn't be done in 86 years with other teams and more importantly other GM's-that alone makes him something special.
ps I wouldn't give a Drew a minus just yet-I don't believe they would have won the WS in 2007 without him-he got some key hits down the stretch and especially that grandslam against Cleveland in a critical agme.

[ogarza]

MAUER/MORNEAU!!!

No need for a poll

Great combo there...I think a poll for the best 1-2 bats in the league would give you a much better results than this pitcher poll produced...just an idea

[wayne1218]

savage, Stop smoking crack!

[savage1]

savage, Stop smoking crack!

Regarding which statement specifically?

[wayne1218]

Regarding which statement specifically?

Most of them. I love Theo too but get real, he has fucked up just as much as he has hit the jackpot!

Who you SHOULD be in love with is the new ownership, NOT THEO. They are the ones who changed EVERYTHING in Boston, Not Theo!

[savage1]

Most of them. I love Theo too but get real, he has fucked up just as much as he has hit the jackpot!

Who you SHOULD be in love with is the new ownership, NOT THEO. They are the ones who changed EVERYTHING in Boston, Not Theo!

The new ownership is great, and Theo has fucked up plenty, but I diagree with the everything that you attribute to ownership-Theo and Francona (as well as the players chosen of course) had PLENTY to do with the results.
ps Would you trade Beckett even up for either one of the SF pitchers in the poll or for both for that matter? I would not.
(Assuming salaries, extensions,etc. were not issues).

[wayne1218]

The new ownership is great, and Theo has fucked up plenty, but I diagree with the everything that you attribute to ownership-Theo and Francona (as well as the players chosen of course) had PLENTY to do with the results.
ps Would you trade Beckett even up for either one of the SF pitchers in the poll or for both for that matter? I would not.
(Assuming salaries, extensions,etc. were not issues).

savage,savage,savage ... Who do you think ultimately brought Francona and Theo here? Let me help you, the ownership. Theo is NOT NEARLY as important as the ownership is. Lose Theo, we move on. Lose ownership again and we cry.

[wayne1218]

ps Would you trade Beckett even up for either one of the SF pitchers in the poll or for both for that matter? I would not.
(Assuming salaries, extensions,etc. were not issues).

I think it is very close. I would take Lincecum over Beckett but i like Lester over Cain.

What scares me most is wondering how well they would do in the AL East instead of the weak NL West. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize facing a high priced DH vs a Pitcher is night and day throughout the whole lineup. You treat the batters in front of him all differently and simply put, you lose that with a DH. If you look at the overall numbers for the year for AL DH Hitters vs pitchers from the NL at the plate, it is mind boggling. That is 11% of the whole lineup you face and it makes a world of difference.

I know one thing. There is no way in hell Lincecum or Cain would have that era in the AL East. No way.

Chris Carpenter is a great example. He has always had great stuff but he had many struggles in the AL or AL East. He played 6 years in Toronto and he went (49-50) with a Era of almost 5.00

This is year 6 in St Louis for him and he is (60-23) with a Era barely over 3. It has been like night & day for him and it has to be a little easier trading the worst hitters in baseball (Pitchers) for the DH in the lineup.

This isn't a AL vs NL debate. Both league's win and do it their own way but there is no disputing which league is easier to pitch in.

I woukld be curious to see how Lincecum would do in the AL. I'm guessing still great but the numbers would not be as staggering IMO.

[savage1]

savage,savage,savage ... Who do you think ultimately brought Francona and Theo here? Let me help you, the ownership. Theo is NOT NEARLY as important as the ownership is. Lose Theo, we move on. Lose ownership again and we cry.

I am not disagreeing with that at all;I am just stating that the folsk chosen still had to do their jobs, which they did/do quitre well.

[savage1]

I think it is very close. I would take Lincecum over Beckett but i like Lester over Cain.

What scares me most is wondering how well they would do in the AL East instead of the weak NL West. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize facing a high priced DH vs a Pitcher is night and day throughout the whole lineup. You treat the batters in front of him all differently and simply put, you lose that with a DH. If you look at the overall numbers for the year for AL DH Hitters vs pitchers from the NL at the plate, it is mind boggling. That is 11% of the whole lineup you face and it makes a world of difference.

I know one thing. There is no way in hell Lincecum or Cain would have that era in the AL East. No way.

Chris Carpenter is a great example. He has always had great stuff but he had many struggles in the AL or AL East. He played 6 years in Toronto and he went (49-50) with a Era of almost 5.00

This is year 6 in St Louis for him and he is (60-23) with a Era barely over 3. It has been like night & day for him and it has to be a little easier trading the worst hitters in baseball (Pitchers) for the DH in the lineup.

This isn't a AL vs NL debate. Both league's win and do it their own way but there is no disputing which league is easier to pitch in.

I woukld be curious to see how Lincecum would do in the AL. I'm guessing still great but the numbers would not be as staggering IMO.

Judging by your writeup(with which I agree wholeheartedly), I am surprised you would still trade Beckett even up for Lincecum.
Lest there be any misunderstanding, not only would I not trade Beckett for Linceum(for many of the reasons you cited), but at this juncture I would not trade Beckett for both Llincecum and Cain of them even up, ie Lester was not even part of the deal if San Francisco offered it.

[wayne1218]

Judging by your writeup(with which I agree wholeheartedly), I am surprised you would still trade Beckett even up for Lincecum.
Lest there be any misunderstanding, not only would I not trade Beckett for Linceum(for many of the reasons you cited), but at this juncture I would not trade Beckett for both Llincecum and Cain of them even up, ie Lester was not even part of the deal if San Francisco offered it.

Savage, I love Beckett too but don't let your heart get in the way on this one. It isn't even close.

Lincecum is 25 years old, he makes $650,000 this year, he has a (36-13) career record for poor Giants teams, He has a career Era of 2.91 and he has 598 K's in only 522 career innings pitched.

Beckett is 4 years older (29) and he makes over 11 Million this year. It isn't even a debate here. You have to take Lincecum. Beckett's numbers are great but they are still not as good as Lincecum's.