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  • Breeders Cup Info Thread

    Interesting article

    We've of course been hearing a lot of talk about the speed bias on the main track at Monmouth. (Interesting that discussion of that sort lacks the disdain that we hear directed toward the synthetic surfaces at Del Mar and Keeneland that have instead favored closers [though not quite as much at the current meeting at the latter]. Many horsemen and breeders just love that speed, and some seem to feel threatened by the thought of tracks playing the way Del Mar did this year.)

    Ever since Monmouth opened for its regular 2007 meeting in May and the dirt track, always perceived as being friendly to front-runners, now seemed to be even more so with its new dirt base, talk of the bias has pervaded discussion of the Breeders' Cup. We've heard trainers sound queasy about the chances of their closers, and speculation that Street Sense's style has been altered towards more early speed in order to adapt.

    Sometimes, common perceptions of particular tracks are wrong. The prime example would be Pimlico, when every year at Preakness time we need to be reminded that the turns there are not really tighter than those at Churchill Downs. Another is the inner track at Aqueduct, which may favor speed, but not because of a shorter stretch as some believe. It's actually 21 feet longer than that of the main track which surrounds it (don't ask me, but it's true).

    We've been hearing a lot about tight turns at Monmouth too, and Jessica Chapel, at her Railbird blog, either used Google Satellite or expended a lot of frequent flyer miles putting together this instructive visual comparison. You may be surprised what you see. Jessica concludes that "Monmouth's sharp curves may well be as apocryphal as those of Pimlico." (Er....being of questionable authenticity, I had to look it up too.)

    But the main question for us trying to unlock the formidable handicapping challenge that awaits us (have you started yet?) is whether the track's early speed reputation, which has started to reach the heights of pre-Poly Keeneland , is real or overrated?

    Brad Thomas is the paddock analyst at Monmouth and at the Meadowlands (though there from the third floor clubhouse), and is as sharp and assiduous (Jessica got me going with the fancy words) in his preparation on a daily basis as anybody in the profession. His observations on the Monmouth course and the types of horses, both in terms of running style and conformation, he feels will succeed (and fail) next weekend is worth the cost of the Daily Racing Form's Advance Edition alone. Thomas told the Form's Dave Litfin that the bias is "much more myth than reality in recent years." Not, he says, that it doesn't favor speed to the extent that any one mile dirt track would, but not "10-star speed favoring on a consistent basis." He feels that the perception has been enhanced this year due to a truly biased track on the weekends when people were watching nationally.

    Jason Servis has been based at Monmouth since he started training horses in 2001, and has proven to be a consistent high-percentage winner. He was the leading trainer not named Todd Pletcher or Bruce Levine at this year's meet, with an impressive 31 for 97 (32%), and 67% in the money. Servis has a somewhat different view on the bias: "My opinion, I think it's real. You got a few speed riders here that add to that reputation. But I think it's real." He spoke of the belief around the backstretch that the track gets faster at high tide. "You can see the infield lake go up a few feet. That could put more moisture in the track."

    However, Servis also agreed that the track has been more speed favoring on big race days. And more significantly, he told me that the surface has changed since the summer meeting ended on September 3. That's the big question - how natural factors such as cooler temperatures and diminished sun strength, as well as any adjustments by the track crew, will affect the way the track plays. Servis, who called the current condition of the track "terrific," saying that it looks "almost manicured," said that "you can't really hear the horses when they gallop on it anymore; it wasn't like that during the summer." He added that the track doesn't seem nearly as fast as it was early in the summer meet. "The [workout] times have been pretty reasonable over the last month."

    We may of course get some clues from the races coming up on Wednesday and Thursday (which for some reason I find myself particularly psyched for...where the hell are the pp's already?), keeping in mind that the track may be different on Friday and, particularly, Saturday. One would think that if it were up to the Breeders' Cup folks, the track would be fair given the suspected rail bias at Churchill last year (or, given the controversy it generated, maybe not).

    What will certainly be different on Friday and Saturday though will be the horses running. Writing at Brisnet.com, Steve Zacks (apparently still a little worked up over last year's bias question) points out:
    Better horses are more likely to run down the speed, even the loose speed, than are lower-quality runners. I would suspect that from the more than 40 races carded over four days, there will be some overlooked late runners winning races on both turf and dirt.
    Thus, he advises: "If one is prepared to take a contrarian view about closers then the rewards may be there!" Indeed, I think that might be the case even if Wednesday and Thursday offers strong evidence that any bias which may have existed previously is gone. The perception of a strong speed trend has been so pervasive for so long now that a lot of that extra money in the pools may be oblivious to anything that happens on those first two days. So I'll be looking for some solid value on horses that are being discounted due to its style even should there be obvious evidence against that view. (And I'll keep an eye on that infield lake too.)

    - Jason Servis also spoke of the condition of the grass course. "I heard on the grapevine that the Europeans wanted the grass to be at least seven inches tall. It's stopped growing now and I don't know if they're going to get that. But the grass is definitely longer." That could be good news for the Euro invaders who will have to overcome the turns which are tighter than to what they're accustomed.
    2012 - 2013 NCAAF

    21 - 20 - 0

    2012 - 2013 NFL

    14 - 10 - 1

  • #2
    Some statistics in this one

    After 23 years, the first Breeders’ Cup World Championships in New Jersey presents an entirely new handicapping puzzle, one that arises occasionally when the usual rotation – Belmont Park, Churchill Downs, Santa Anita or Hollywood Park – is interrupted in favor of a new venue.


    Past forays to Woodbine, in Toronto, Arlington Park, near Chicago, and Lone Star Park, in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex each posed a new set of questions for handicappers unfamiliar with the character of courses they confront at no other time, yet some of the most formful afternoons in the event’s history unfolded on those occasions.


    Horses favored in the betting pools won the Juvenile Fillies and Sprint in 1996 at Woodbine with the winners of the Distaff and Juvenile reporting home at about 5-2. Alphabet Soup, winner of the Classic, scored an upset at the day’s longest price, slightly less than 20-1.


    A cold, damp Breeders’ Cup afternoon in 2002 at Arlington may be best remembered for Volponi’s upset of the Classic at more than 43-1 or the thwarted attempt by three ex fraternity brothers to steal the pick-six pool -- but four favorites rose to the occasion in Illinois, two at less than even money. Two years later, in Texas, that pattern was duplicated with four favorites winning on the day.


    There has been much speculation concerning Monmouth’s infamous speed bias and the effect of autumn weather, but that speed bias in not entirely a function of the ground and will manifest itself on the weekend regardless of other extenuating circumstance.

    A good part of the dynamic goes hand in glove with a short stretch – 990 feet in this case – at the end of a three-sixteenth-mile turn. The configuration as much or more than the dirt underfoot is a severe detriment to deep closing horses. The character of the racing surfaces will remain a matter of conjecture until the beginning of racing on Wednesday but the configuration remains as it always has. A horse not in position to win coming off the turn is unlikely to overcome the disadvantage.


    The character of the track has influenced this Breeders’ Cup on any levels. Monmouth’s speed favoring reputation, trainer Aidan O’Brien said last week, was in great part responsible for the decision to place George Washington –considered a sprinter-miler in Europe -- in the Breeders’ Cup Classic Powered by Dodge rather than the Net Jets Mile.


    Statistics gleaned from the work of Jim Mazur and Peter Mallett, authors of “Crushing the Cup,” and many other similar studies, make clear the importance of both frontrunning and tactical speed in races run over the main track at Monmouth.


    A 10-year sample of open main-track stakes races run at a mile and 70 yards at Monmouth – the Dirt Mile distance in its inaugural running on Friday – show 42 percent by won by frontrunners and 50 percent by stalkers. The trend holds in nine-furlong races, 63 percent going to the pacemaker and 25 percent to stalking horses.


    A decade of six-furlong stakes for fillies and mares has seen the frontrunner win 33 percent of the time and stalkers another 44. Male frontrunners have been somewhat less dominant at six furlongs, winning 26 percent of stakes races at the distance but stalking sprinters have won 67 percent of these races.


    Though it is uncertain that the course on a wet autumn day will mirror the character a Monmouth off track during the summer months, muddy and sloppy ground typically amplify the edge provided to speed horses by the short stretch.


    The turf course is more accommodating to horses racing well behind the pace though the data on races at distances longer than nine furlongs is sparse. The 11-furlong, Grade 1 United Nations Handicap is the longest race run on the turf course at Monmouth.


    At a mile, the distance at which both the first Juvenile Turf and Mile will be contested, frontrunning horses have no tactical advantage. Only 11 percent of turf-course stakes for two-year-olds have been won by the pacemaker over the last decade. Stalking horses have won 67 percent of these races with the rest going to closers. Just 10 percent of stakes for three-year-olds and up have gone to the pacemakers while a third has been won by closers. Again, a stalking style is best.


    A caveat: The grass at Monmouth, though dormant, is longer than it has ever been.


    None of this data has been collected in autumn and there is no guarantee that trends established in summertime will withstand the change of season. The stretch, however, will still be 990-feet-long.
    2012 - 2013 NCAAF

    21 - 20 - 0

    2012 - 2013 NFL

    14 - 10 - 1

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    • #3
      Bill thanks for the info can't wait for Friday and Saturday!!
      1*=$50

      Crusader MM starting qb at Oregon

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      • #4
        I am going to see if I can take a look tonight. They have cards Wednesday and Thursday as well
        2012 - 2013 NCAAF

        21 - 20 - 0

        2012 - 2013 NFL

        14 - 10 - 1

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        • #5
          Here is some info for Monmouth for Wed. & Thurs.
          Attached Files
          He who wears diaper knows his shit - Confucius

          Comment


          • #7
            Thanks for posting the BC files....
            THE ART OF BEING WISE IS THE ART OF KNOWING WHAT TO OVERLOOK...

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            • #8
              inside thanks for the post
              1*=$50

              Crusader MM starting qb at Oregon

              Comment


              • #9
                One thing everyone needs to understand about breeders cup.

                It is arguably the hardest horse handicapping that there is. All that talent plus the European horses.

                Be careful, dont wager to much because it is very hard to make money on this event.
                Questions, comments, complaints:
                [email protected]

                Comment


                • #10
                  I have so much info and trends I don't know if I can post it all. I actually have too much information.

                  I did well last year. I only played 5 horse boxes exactas. I hit 5 of them with 4 paying $150-$250 for $1. If they had 10 cent supers I know I wopuld have hit 2 of them that would have pad over $400 each.

                  I actually walked away even last year though. In the Classic I tryed to hit some huge super and didn't have Invasor.
                  Good Luck to everyone
                  Adam

                  Richie: [after Gus hits a homerun] Wow and he did it without steroids.
                  Clark: What's steroids?
                  Richie: Something that makes your pee-pee smaller.
                  Clark: There must be steroids in macaroni!

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                  • #11
                    Originally posted by jcindaville
                    One thing everyone needs to understand about breeders cup.

                    It is arguably the hardest horse handicapping that there is. All that talent plus the European horses.

                    Be careful, dont wager to much because it is very hard to make money on this event.
                    I agree, but disagree with your boss. Very simply, any horse can win like you say, so traditional handicapping doesn't work. But to not play into those huge pools looking for odds........I play quite a few hundred last year and had many opportunites to win (because I took shots at some odds) and brought back a few grand.

                    Throw 200 on it with the chance to bring back a few grand and enjoy two days of racing
                    2012 - 2013 NCAAF

                    21 - 20 - 0

                    2012 - 2013 NFL

                    14 - 10 - 1

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by BillMill71
                      I agree, but disagree with your boss. Very simply, any horse can win like you say, so traditional handicapping doesn't work. But to not play into those huge pools looking for odds........I play quite a few hundred last year and had many opportunites to win (because I took shots at some odds) and brought back a few grand.

                      Throw 200 on it with the chance to bring back a few grand and enjoy two days of racing
                      Bill, i didnt say not to play, i said not to play to much. That is sound advice in an event that NO ONE can handicapp.

                      I would rather a bettor look at regaular racing at Saratoga or Keeneland for some good odds.

                      Its just my bosses opinion, and he is really good. He is just not the style of bettor that fits into BC's Wagering mentality.
                      Questions, comments, complaints:
                      [email protected]

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by BillMill71
                        I agree, but disagree with your boss. Very simply, any horse can win like you say, so traditional handicapping doesn't work. But to not play into those huge pools looking for odds........I play quite a few hundred last year and had many opportunites to win (because I took shots at some odds) and brought back a few grand.

                        Throw 200 on it with the chance to bring back a few grand and enjoy two days of racing

                        You dont agree with anyone
                        Questions, comments, complaints:
                        [email protected]

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by jcindaville
                          Bill, i didnt say not to play, i said not to play to much. That is sound advice in an event that NO ONE can handicapp.

                          I would rather a bettor look at regaular racing at Saratoga or Keeneland for some good odds.

                          Its just my bosses opinion, and he is really good. He is just not the style of bettor that fits into BC's Wagering mentality.
                          Ok, I agree with you. You know how hard that was to say. Now take 2-300 and throw it down and cross your fingers
                          2012 - 2013 NCAAF

                          21 - 20 - 0

                          2012 - 2013 NFL

                          14 - 10 - 1

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Here is the info for Friday & Saturday
                            Attached Files
                            He who wears diaper knows his shit - Confucius

                            Comment

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