Senate Rejects Bid to Raise Minimum Wage

[TwoTonTony]

It's a noble stance to take that all workers should make more than $5.15 an hour. While it gives one a warm and fuzzy feeling trying to be the defender of the down trodden, study after study has shown that increasing the minimum wage only hurts those who it attempts to help. No serious economist refutes that. As this wage goes up, the small percentage of the jobs in this bracket diminish. That's the truth. Blame small business all you want but this country is founded on capitalism and free markets. In theory, why should the Government make an employer pay someone $5.15/hr when he believes the job only has a value of $4.50/hr. The free market works well and just as it dictates what items cost it also helps dictate what people should be paid (as is the case in every single job other than minimum wage positions and those subject to union pay scales). Ask the European countries (Germany, France, etc...) how they like the minimum wage laws in their country. Double digit unemployment and economic stagflation is rampant over there partially because of them. One last note, simply state that your argument is purely humanitarian (nothing wrong with that) and not based on solid economic theory. If you think this is good policy, then I guess you also probably believe that you are being artifically gouged at the pump by Bush and Big Oil as they try to screw everyone and line their pockets with $3 a gallon gas. Anyone who believes that fails to realize that we now compete in a global economy where the price of a limited resource is dictated solely by supply and demand. If you still do not believe it then watch out for the bogeyman and the shooter on the grassy knoll.

the government gets 22% of each gallon and the oil companies margins are only 8%........So the government is getting the larger chunk by almost 3x

[TwoTonTony]

It's a noble stance to take that all workers should make more than $5.15 an hour. While it gives one a warm and fuzzy feeling trying to be the defender of the down trodden, study after study has shown that increasing the minimum wage only hurts those who it attempts to help. No serious economist refutes that. As this wage goes up, the small percentage of the jobs in this bracket diminish. That's the truth. Blame small business all you want but this country is founded on capitalism and free markets. In theory, why should the Government make an employer pay someone $5.15/hr when he believes the job only has a value of $4.50/hr. The free market works well and just as it dictates what items cost it also helps dictate what people should be paid (as is the case in every single job other than minimum wage positions and those subject to union pay scales). Ask the European countries (Germany, France, etc...) how they like the minimum wage laws in their country. Double digit unemployment and economic stagflation is rampant over there partially because of them. One last note, simply state that your argument is purely humanitarian (nothing wrong with that) and not based on solid economic theory. If you think this is good policy, then I guess you also probably believe that you are being artifically gouged at the pump by Bush and Big Oil as they try to screw everyone and line their pockets with $3 a gallon gas. Anyone who believes that fails to realize that we now compete in a global economy where the price of a limited resource is dictated solely by supply and demand. If you still do not believe it then watch out for the bogeyman and the shooter on the grassy knoll.

well said,.....anybody see the riots in france recently......wage related

[BackDoorCvr]

You must be a big Bush fan

Why did we have a huge surplus when Bush took over then it just disappeared.

Between Regan, Bush Sr & Bush Jr. they have ran the defecit of this Country up more than anyone else.

The Middle class and lower class are the ones putting the majority of the money into this Economy not the richest 10%

Actually the top 5% of taxpayers pay 55% of all taxes so it is a small portion of the population that putting alot into the economy.

One single event. The War in Iraq, has cost this country untold billions. This is where the surplus has gone. Whether we should be there or not is a different argument. Reagan was in office during the end of the Cold War, Bush Sr. during the 1st Gulf War and now Bush Jr. I don't agree with alot of what Bush has done, but I do not think it's appropriate to blame him for budget deficits largely as a result of defending this country.

[cd329]

Tony,
America will never ever be competitve with third world countries for making products. That is totally impossible.
People in third world countries are happy to work for next to nothing, because there is only 2 groups of people in those countries, the very wealthy and the very poor. So unless your plan is for America to turn into a third world country and convince people who are not among the very elite, to work for the lowest wages so America can be competitive, its not going to happen.
Heres the solution to our economy's problems. All these companies want to go overseas and get their products made for pennies on the dollar and then turn around and bring those products back here to sell to us. Whats amazing is these companies are reaping the benifits of getting their products made cheap, but do they turn around and pass some of those saving onto the American public? Hell no, they keep their prices the same and thats because they are greedy pigs.
So heres the solution: when those companies bring the products back here, put a tax on those products so high, that companies will realize its better to just stay in America and hire workers here to make the products. All these companies are getting let off the hook by being able to go overseas.
Some people argue well its a free country and business has the right to try and increase their profits and i agree with that theory. But its also the right of our government to protect the citizens of this country and they can do that by telling the companies, this is what we charge if you want to sell your products here, if you dont want to pay the taxes, then sell your products to the people in the countries where you are having them made. They would all be out of business, cause those people arent buying their products we are here in America. You know the jobs that would be created again in this country and how good our economy would be? It would be like the old days, before companies decided to start moving overseas. Thats my one solution, but am a realist and i know that could and would never happen in a million years and thats because big business controls this country, not politicians.
Its nice to dream thou.

[BackDoorCvr]

First off backdoor, maybe you didnt read what i wrote.
Warren buffet said the tax cuts would help the economy more if they were given to the lower and middle class people. Putting his money into a cd is not going to help the economy more then giving the tax cuts to people who will actually take that money and circulate it right back into the economy.
This has nothing to do with democrat or republician {which iam } this has to do with pure common sense. I can see you are probably one of those brain washed republicians who believes everything hes told.
In closing, sorry but i tend to believe what the second richiest person in the world would say about how tax cuts and which ones would help the economy more. The guy knows more about money then any person in government could ever begin to learn. Your theroy is so outdated, money doesnt trickle down like the republicians want you to believe, its always stays at the top and always will.
You give a lower and middle class guy, 300 extra bucks and you can be sure that 300 bucks will be spent back into the economy.
So your thoughts are misguided, but hey thats just my opinion verus your opinion.

The fact that tax revenues are at an all time high despite tax cuts is not a theory, nor is it outdated. It is a fact and on the US Trasury's website. Buffet is a smart guy who knows how to pick stocks. This is not knowing about money. Any past or current Treasury Secretary and Fed Chairman knows much more about money in a global sense which is not just limited to the stock market.

[winner]

Tony,
America will never ever be competitve with third world countries for making products. That is totally impossible.
People in third world countries are happy to work for next to nothing, because there is only 2 groups of people in those countries, the very wealthy and the very poor. So unless your plan is for America to turn into a third world country and convince people who are not among the very elite, to work for the lowest wages so America can be competitive, its not going to happen.
Heres the solution to our economy's problems. All these companies want to go overseas and get their products made for pennies on the dollar and then turn around and bring those products back here to sell to us. Whats amazing is these companies are reaping the benifits of getting their products made cheap, but do they turn around and pass some of those saving onto the American public? Hell no, they keep their prices the same and thats because they are greedy pigs.
So heres the solution: when those companies bring the products back here, put a tax on those products so high, that companies will realize its better to just stay in America and hire workers here to make the products. All these companies are getting let off the hook by being able to go overseas.
Some people argue well its a free country and business has the right to try and increase their profits and i agree with that theory. But its also the right of our government to protect the citizens of this country and they can do that by telling the companies, this is what we charge if you want to sell your products here, if you dont want to pay the taxes, then sell your products to the people in the countries where you are having them made. They would all be out of business, cause those people arent buying their products we are here in America. You know the jobs that would be created again in this country and how good our economy would be? It would be like the old days, before companies decided to start moving overseas. Thats my one solution, but am a realist and i know that could and would never happen in a million years and thats because big business controls this country, not politicians.
Its nice to dream thou.

Interesting solution. So the next time you need a pair of Nike's, you're willing to pay $300, or $25 for a tee-shirt? $20 for a blender or just about double to triple for everything that you pay for now? And since the big business, who directly or indirectly employs MANY people, when those people lose their jobs, then what? Unemployment for how long? Then what? Not to mention the tax revenue lost b/c of the high unemployment numbers. And then with little to no profits, companies can't reinvest in their business and hire more people. Not saying I know the answer, but yours might be a toughie!

[cd329]

Backdoor, seriously are you home smoking crack or just brain washed by fox news? So what you are saying is that minimum wage should now stay 5.15 an hour forever. Doesnt matter that everything in society rises in price, the people working these low paying jobs should get the same paychecks for the next 50 years. Really i want some of the stuff you are smoking, must be really good. How could you make a statement like that and go look yourself in the mirror? This has nothing to do with being noble, it has to do with paying a person a fair amount of money for the job they perform. You make it sound like i just want to raise the salary of every minimum wage worker to 20 bucks an hour. No, thats not what am talking about. What i mean is the minimum wage worker should be able to do his job and be able to afford to buy the same things he was able to buy 7 years ago. Its called keeping up with inflation, my God how can you not see that. Even social security raises peoples checks every year at the rate of inflation, to think one group should remain the same forever is unreal.
It will come to a point someday when all those people who go to those minimum wage jobs everyday that none of us would want to work, will decide screw this job, i havent gotton a raise in 20 years, i could make more money sitting at home collecting welfare and food stamps, why bother going to work?
Do you know the effects that would cause in this country? I know when that happens you will quit your current job and go flip burgers at burger king.
Man my head is pounding right now, just cant believe the thought process of some people.

[BackDoorCvr]

I was listening to Bob Brinker on moneytalk and was saying how comical the deficit is in comparison to the asset base in the us.....It is miniscule.....

You may be right about that because the middle class has many more people in it......It does no good to penalize the rich....if we do they will not risk capital to create jobs.....If they do well, we all do well......

I do not think the lower class puts in alot...they are a bigger drag than anything.......If someone is making 20K and are taxed at 28% if that it is like 5K.....

that is not alot of total dollars contributed......

I know wealthy guys who pay huge amounts......Most times there is no getting around it, even after all the deductions....If you are making cake ...you will be paying......

There have been years i have contributed a heck alot of money....

I can tell you one thing....being in business is great....but it is hard as hell and you risk alot of your life to make it.....While all your friends are making their 100K you are grinding it out on the hopes to make it in 5 years or so.....

Hence the risk reward ratio.....

I am assuming many folks here have never been self-employed or employed others byt the tone of things

I couldn't agree with you more. I, along with 2 partners, started our own business about 2.5 years ago. Luckily, we were able to raise some of the capital we needed through a private equity firm. It is rich people investing in firms like this which in turn invest in small businesses and create jobs. Soaking them, you are absolutely right, does no good. They pay more than their fair share. And while giving a couple of hundred dollars back to folks in the lower middle lower class may mean alot to them on a personal level, it does not compare with the economic impact as a whole when millions of dollars are freed up due to tax breaks and are invested as such. Some people just don't get it.

[cd329]

Winner,
your solution then is our country should trade jobs for having products made overseas so you can buy them cheaper, which in case you dont realize it, none of the companies making their products over seas pass the saving back to us here in America.
Nope they still charge the same price as if the products were getting made by American workers. Nike is a great example, they probably have their sneakers made overseas for a couple of dollars, but do they lower the prices for those sneaks here?
Hell no, still charging the big bucks.
We can go back and fourth about this, neither one of us are gonna be right. Were better off using our mind power to try and pick some winners, instead.

[cd329]

Backdoor, not every rich guy getting tax breaks invests their money back into business, thats just not true.
That Reagan trickle down economics is just the rich guys trying to make you believe that crap. In some cases it happens, but in alot of cases it doesnt. The rich just take that money and buy themselves stuff, instead of trying to invest it and create more jobs.

[winner]

This has nothing to do with being noble, it has to do with paying a person a fair amount of money for the job they perform.

Who is better to decide what's fair, the govt or the market?

What i mean is the minimum wage worker should be able to do his job and be able to afford to buy the same things he was able to buy 7 years ago. Its called keeping up with inflation,

So if inflation goes to 6% a year, or whatever rate, everyone, including minimum wage earners should have a pre authorized pay raise, tied to inflation, regardless of companies profitablity?

It will come to a point someday when all those people who go to those minimum wage jobs everyday that none of us would want to work, will decide screw this job,

None of us would want to work that wage job, or a job that we might be overqualified for, hence we deserve more money? Pay is proportional to skills required for the job

[cd329]

One other thing, some of you guys complain about how tough business is for you. Did any of you stop and think maybe your just not good businessmen or the business you are in isnt the best choice. I mean really it could just be you. Also could be the product or service you are selling, people just dont want.

[TwoTonTony]

Tony,
America will never ever be competitve with third world countries for making products. That is totally impossible.
People in third world countries are happy to work for next to nothing, because there is only 2 groups of people in those countries, the very wealthy and the very poor. So unless your plan is for America to turn into a third world country and convince people who are not among the very elite, to work for the lowest wages so America can be competitive, its not going to happen.
Heres the solution to our economy's problems. All these companies want to go overseas and get their products made for pennies on the dollar and then turn around and bring those products back here to sell to us. Whats amazing is these companies are reaping the benifits of getting their products made cheap, but do they turn around and pass some of those saving onto the American public? Hell no, they keep their prices the same and thats because they are greedy pigs.
So heres the solution: when those companies bring the products back here, put a tax on those products so high, that companies will realize its better to just stay in America and hire workers here to make the products. All these companies are getting let off the hook by being able to go overseas.
Some people argue well its a free country and business has the right to try and increase their profits and i agree with that theory. But its also the right of our government to protect the citizens of this country and they can do that by telling the companies, this is what we charge if you want to sell your products here, if you dont want to pay the taxes, then sell your products to the people in the countries where you are having them made. They would all be out of business, cause those people arent buying their products we are here in America. You know the jobs that would be created again in this country and how good our economy would be? It would be like the old days, before companies decided to start moving overseas. Thats my one solution, but am a realist and i know that could and would never happen in a million years and thats because big business controls this country, not politicians.
Its nice to dream thou.

That sounds fine on paper, but then it would not be a free market system.....it is now a global economy and the US has been fat cats for a long time....it is not just 3rd world countries that we are exporting labor to......Ireland, Taiwan, Japan, India......Why are do these kids do so much better in school than ours wehn they come here??? The US has gotten lazy in some areas.....The answer is not to tighten our borders (because that is what we are doing by not trading freely)...however the chinese trade we are getting fucked.....

We need to operate leaner....at once inventories and keep payroll in line......

I know people do not want to hear that and many unions get what they want, but that is also dangerous....My mom is a machinist for UTC and they conceded to all the unions wishes......so they got what they wanted....only problem is they pink slipped thousands....so some got what they wanted, but at the cost of jobs to their union brothers.....

That is the beauty of free market...it sets the wages and it sets the prices....it is what the market bears.....

[TwoTonTony]

One other thing, some of you guys complain about how tough business is for you. Did any of you stop and think maybe your just not good businessmen or the business you are in isnt the best choice. I mean really it could just be you. Also could be the product or service you are selling, people just dont want.

I think that is a very broad assumption....Even when things are hard, you still may be doing well....I have learned long ago...there is no free lunch....and you must be nimble, because there is always change.....

I used to hear people say..."that is a good business"....that is an assanine statement....because in each business, there are winners and there are losers......Some are harder to make it for a little guy.......Especially ones that require larger inventories, because a large company will buy better and have economies of scale you can not acquire......

I believe if you can not make 150K a year in business, you would be better off to work for the man....You can make that without the amount of capital being risked.....The only thing that is the saving grace for owning is you get a payout if it is marketable and many expense writeoffs....So even when i did work for the man, i always had an LLC......

[winner]

Winner,
your solution then is our country should trade jobs for having products made overseas so you can buy them cheaper, which in case you dont realize it, none of the companies making their products over seas pass the saving back to us here in America.
Nope they still charge the same price as if the products were getting made by American workers. Nike is a great example, they probably have their sneakers made overseas for a couple of dollars, but do they lower the prices for those sneaks here?
Hell no, still charging the big bucks.
We can go back and fourth about this, neither one of us are gonna be right. Were better off using our mind power to try and pick some winners, instead.

If you read the last line of my post, I wrote I don't know the answer. But I know taxing everything coming in from overseas isn't it. What do you then do about the higher unemployment? What do you do about the inflation caused by the higher prices? I assume you never shop at the "discount" stores and only buy 100% American-made products correct? When you need that blender, you don't got to Wal-Mart but to the mom and pop hardware store to pay double the price right? And if people thought Nike was selling their products for too much, they would go out of business for a lack of sales. Build a better shoe, market it, make it in America at the wages you suggest, pay the athletes to endorse, and see how you do. Build a better mousetrap.