Senate Rejects Bid to Raise Minimum Wage

[musclemann]

You blame Bush/Cheney when minimum been the same since 1997. They don't have a vote.

Since when does the presidents Chief of Staff get a vote on the senate floor?

THANKS EINSTEIN.

[bover1]

Could Be Worse U Could Have Been Paid With Wooden Nickels Like I Did In The War Of 1812......

Signed

Sgt. Spark

[jcindaville]

Could Be Worse U Could Have Been Paid With Wooden Nickels Like I Did In The War Of 1812......

Signed

Sgt. Spark

[cd329]

I am totally amazed by the amount of people in this thread who think that the minimum wage is just fine where its at.
Seriously are alot of you smoking crack? How can you say $5.15 an hour is a fair wage and then look yourself in the mirror? Just because you might have a good job, is no reason to look at other people and say tough crap your making enough money, doing the job that you dont want to be doing and hopefully never will have to. Were not talking about kids working summer jobs, were talking about people working all those jobs you dont want to work for peanuts a week. Some of you must just have ice in your veins and no heart at all.
Really the next time you are looking for a raise at your job, think about the stupid comments you made here. What makes any of us deserve pay raises in society, but not the people doing the minimum wage jobs? These same assholesssss that voted the raise, have the nerve to vote themselves a raise anytime they want, who hell are they? I wonder how many raises they would get if the people got to vote on that?
Also dont believe this crap that it hurts small business, because thats a load of crap. Every single thing in life goes up and the expense of that always gets passed down to the consumer, no matter what that may be, this is a fact of life, so for a small business owner to say that a small pay raise will put him out of business is pure garbage. Lets just use an example: one of you guys here work in a plant that makes t.v.'s, you and your fellow employees want a raise and you get it. Who do you think is going to pay for that raise? The consumer thats who, first the company is going to jack the price of the t.v.'s it sells to stores, then the stores are going to jack the prices up to the consumer, so how is jacking the price of the t.v. up at the store any differnt then giving the workers a raise and jacking the prices up? Yeah i know, then all the big chain stores will put you out of business, well my friends its not minimum wage workers that put you out of business, its those politicians who created the unfair advantages those big chain stores have over the small guy, thats whos to blame. Just the tax breaks alone that the big stores get, can put the little guy out of business, yet alone all the stuff being made overseas, which has a trickle effect all the way down to the little guy. So wake up and stop living in a fantasy world where you think prices of things shouldnt go up and wages should stay the same for years, unless they are your wages of course. Our society is designed so the rich can get richer at the expense of the poor.
Gotta love the politicians who use that scare tactic of people will lose their jobs, if we let a human being earn enough money to actually live on.
Just think if someday every person making minimum wage just decided to all quit their jobs and say screw it. Who would wait on all of you.
Wake up people, give them a raise.

[TwoTonTony]

I am totally amazed by the amount of people in this thread who think that the minimum wage is just fine where its at.
Seriously are alot of you smoking crack? How can you say $5.15 an hour is a fair wage and then look yourself in the mirror? Just because you might have a good job, is no reason to look at other people and say tough crap your making enough money, doing the job that you dont want to be doing and hopefully never will have to. Were not talking about kids working summer jobs, were talking about people working all those jobs you dont want to work for peanuts a week. Some of you must just have ice in your veins and no heart at all.
Really the next time you are looking for a raise at your job, think about the stupid comments you made here. What makes any of us deserve pay raises in society, but not the people doing the minimum wage jobs? These same assholesssss that voted the raise, have the nerve to vote themselves a raise anytime they want, who hell are they? I wonder how many raises they would get if the people got to vote on that?
Also dont believe this crap that it hurts small business, because thats a load of crap. Every single thing in life goes up and the expense of that always gets passed down to the consumer, no matter what that may be, this is a fact of life, so for a small business owner to say that a small pay raise will put him out of business is pure garbage. Lets just use an example: one of you guys here work in a plant that makes t.v.'s, you and your fellow employees want a raise and you get it. Who do you think is going to pay for that raise? The consumer thats who, first the company is going to jack the price of the t.v.'s it sells to stores, then the stores are going to jack the prices up to the consumer, so how is jacking the price of the t.v. up at the store any differnt then giving the workers a raise and jacking the prices up? Yeah i know, then all the big chain stores will put you out of business, well my friends its not minimum wage workers that put you out of business, its those politicians who created the unfair advantages those big chain stores have over the small guy, thats whos to blame. Just the tax breaks alone that the big stores get, can put the little guy out of business, yet alone all the stuff being made overseas, which has a trickle effect all the way down to the little guy. So wake up and stop living in a fantasy world where you think prices of things shouldnt go up and wages should stay the same for years, unless they are your wages of course. Our society is designed so the rich can get richer at the expense of the poor.
Gotta love the politicians who use that scare tactic of people will lose their jobs, if we let a human being earn enough money to actually live on.
Just think if someday every person making minimum wage just decided to all quit their jobs and say screw it. Who would wait on all of you.
Wake up people, give them a raise.

CD, you are missing a valuable point....The small businessman does not have the economies of scale of a large businessman....You may not know what that is, but it is efficiencies divided over a much larger unit base thus rendering any small increase or decrease to be almost negligible....But to a small business these increases are disprportionately higher, because it is absorbed over either much less revenue/units produced.....A larger company can pass this on to the consumer becuase the increase in labor cost is so miniscule because it is divided out over more units produced....A small company can not.....To stay competitive they can not pass the whole thing onto the consumer...He must absorb more of the increase.....Your answer is almost as generic as the one where people say, "You can just write it off"....Like thats all business does...Most people have no fucking clue how to write stuff off.....

I speak from experience on this topic since i went thriough it and i also had something similar effect my business.....I provided real good service and had a quick turnaround time....however, when we got real real real busy customers would come in begging for a custom made product in 1-2 days where our lead time was normally 1 week.....For the first few years we would say, next year give us enough time, but we will get it ready for you anyways....Well this went on and on and as we grew, we had to pay our people time and a half to service this people we were doing favors for...yet we did not charge anymore for the product...so we were making less on orders being done for people who were asking for favors because they did not plan...why should we be penalized i said???...hence we had to have a 25% rush charge since it was the same people abusing our good service......We were working 24 hours to accomodate...


My point is we absorbed the increase in labor costs and it hurt tremendously because we could not pass it on.......Small business is no picnic....Lots of hard work and many many hours......Any labor cost increase effects smaller businesses more, because unlike home depots and other big boys......people have more options to shop elsewhere.....

I also paid my employees about 25% more than industry average, but i had 0 turnover and a more efficient operation because of it...

I do not know if i support the increase.....but it does effect small business.........

You see many people who have only been employees just seem to think all people in business are rich and for you the check just shows up....I can tell you i have had to cover payroll during certain times out of my pocket.....but these are things many owners do without much fanfare....

[TwoTonTony]

I am totally amazed by the amount of people in this thread who think that the minimum wage is just fine where its at.
Seriously are alot of you smoking crack? How can you say $5.15 an hour is a fair wage and then look yourself in the mirror? Just because you might have a good job, is no reason to look at other people and say tough crap your making enough money, doing the job that you dont want to be doing and hopefully never will have to. Were not talking about kids working summer jobs, were talking about people working all those jobs you dont want to work for peanuts a week. Some of you must just have ice in your veins and no heart at all.
Really the next time you are looking for a raise at your job, think about the stupid comments you made here. What makes any of us deserve pay raises in society, but not the people doing the minimum wage jobs? These same assholesssss that voted the raise, have the nerve to vote themselves a raise anytime they want, who hell are they? I wonder how many raises they would get if the people got to vote on that?
Also dont believe this crap that it hurts small business, because thats a load of crap. Every single thing in life goes up and the expense of that always gets passed down to the consumer, no matter what that may be, this is a fact of life, so for a small business owner to say that a small pay raise will put him out of business is pure garbage. Lets just use an example: one of you guys here work in a plant that makes t.v.'s, you and your fellow employees want a raise and you get it. Who do you think is going to pay for that raise? The consumer thats who, first the company is going to jack the price of the t.v.'s it sells to stores, then the stores are going to jack the prices up to the consumer, so how is jacking the price of the t.v. up at the store any differnt then giving the workers a raise and jacking the prices up? Yeah i know, then all the big chain stores will put you out of business, well my friends its not minimum wage workers that put you out of business, its those politicians who created the unfair advantages those big chain stores have over the small guy, thats whos to blame. Just the tax breaks alone that the big stores get, can put the little guy out of business, yet alone all the stuff being made overseas, which has a trickle effect all the way down to the little guy. So wake up and stop living in a fantasy world where you think prices of things shouldnt go up and wages should stay the same for years, unless they are your wages of course. Our society is designed so the rich can get richer at the expense of the poor.
Gotta love the politicians who use that scare tactic of people will lose their jobs, if we let a human being earn enough money to actually live on.
Just think if someday every person making minimum wage just decided to all quit their jobs and say screw it. Who would wait on all of you.
Wake up people, give them a raise.

Also your example is not how businesses are run....People just do not ask for raises and they decide to give them and then they raise prices....That is not how it works at all.....Each company alots a % of its projected revenues to labor costs, building costs, advertising costs, etc....If any of these are out of line then they must be adjusted to insure profitablilty.....Sometimes there may be an out of whack labor cost increase due to anything (parts shortage, defective parts), etc...When this happens you just do not raise prices...not that simple in a free enterprise system...Your competition may not have had those same extra costs and do not need to raise prices...So whose TV are they going to buy....Yours that you NOW are charging more because you "are passing it on to the consumer" or the other guys who is now lower.....Well the lower one of course...So who will be hurt....The company that is now not selling TV's because they are higher.....

What most companies due is look for efficiencies in other areas......Others have their hands tied due to other issues...i.e. GM because of bloated pension costs....Some companies may have just bought their building at a time that buildings were at an all-time high so their occupation cost per sq ft is much higher...whereas the competition may have owned their building for years and their costs are lower.....

My point is that it is different and situational and to say just pass it on to the consumer is idiotic in an elastic economy.....

However, there are products that everyone needs that can be passed on to the consumer since they have little choice in the matter....An example of this would be insulin....Diabetics have to have it...so they have little choice and you can not shop around....But in general in a capitalistic society.....The market sets the price....Laisse faire....."what the market will bear".....

Is a house that was worth 100K 3 years ago really worth 200k now....Probably not, but it does not matter since the market is bearing it and people are paying it.....

[cd329]

Tony, my parents owned a bar business for 20 years, always paying the help above minimum wage. My wife owns a small business and pays her help above minimum wage. Your theories are so outdated, its not even comical. My examples were just examples of how people in other areas get raises.
So basically what your saying, is even thou the price of just about every single thing in this world has gone up every year, people working the lower income jobs, should never get raises and work their asses off so the small business owner can make all the money and get ahead in life. Lolllllllll great theory.
A person working a job at 5.15 an hour can spend almost his whole check just paying for gas to get to his job, to work for the small business owner. Without all those people willing to come work those jobs, small businesses owners wouldnt even be in business and you would be looking for a job yourself. Problem with most small business owners, they are greedy pigs that want to basically have people work for them for next to nothing, so they can load up their pockets. If you cant pay people a decent wage and still make some money for yourself, then maybe your business isnt that good and you should really be looking for a job yourself. So sick of hearing about the small business owners always crying poverty, all the while they are living in the 200k house, driving the brand new cars, going on the vacations, and then turning around saying they are just making ends meat, thats crappppppppp. I know way to many business owners who are getting fat at the expense of low wage workers.
How about the waitresses and waiters who dont even get paid minimum wage? Why should the business owner not have to pay them at least minimum wage? They escape it because the workers earn tips. Guess when they wrote that law, they failed to realize theres tons of cheap people who dont tip or tip really low, But the owner gets to profit off these workers by not paying minimum wage. After reading your part about gms bloated pensions, i can see without even meeting you, that you are the typical small business owner who does nothing but bad mouth unions, workers making to much money etc etc. I guess its a crime for a guy to put 30 years into a job and get a decent pension. What was that plant worker thinking, after he retires he should just go find a job working for a small business owner at peanut wages, so the owner can live the american dream. Yes the workers they dont deserve to earn a pension, only the top company guys deserve to get pensions, most worth millions of dollars. But its the little guys fault for companies going broke, not the bigshots with their bloated paychecks.
Heres a fact for you, since i know you are a union hater. If we didnt have unions in this country, there would have never been a middle class, all there would have been is 2 classes, the rich and the poor. Small business owners would love for union jobs to go away in this country, then they would be in 7th heaven. All those middle class workers would be forced to work for slave wages, cause there wouldnt be any other jobs.
When a company like gm gives its employees a raise, you can bet your ass that cost is passed on down to the consumer.
Bottomline is we can go back and forth with this issue, neither one of us will be right, because you got your opinion of how society should work and i have mine.
But like i said in my other post, employee wages isnt killing small businesses, its the big corporations with the unfair advantages they have over small business, like getting all their products made overseas for pennies on the dollars. How do you compete with that? You cant. So blame those corrupt politicians in congress for helping to put small business out of business.
OH by the way am a retired firefighter collecting a "bloated" pension which i earned after my very first fire many years ago.

[TwoTonTony]

wow...i guess i struck a nerve....1st of all i never said i supported the wage increase or not.....I simply said how this effected the small business owner and his point of view....secondly i have worked for one of the largest companies in the world as a senior sales executive so i know what it is like to be a fat cat......I am simply stating that somehwere bloated pensions simply make a company not able to compete due to the fact that 34 cents of every dollar generated by GM goes to pensions....i do not begrudge a good job to anyone....I am simply stating the ramifications...If you also read it stated i paid my people 25% over industry average because i was interested in loyalty and paying people what they are worth.....but they did work hard and were the best....

So please you do not know me....I fought my way from near bankruptcy from a stealing partner 19 years ago to get where i am today...I probably worked more in a week than you in a month...But i do not live in a 200k house....That is what my tool shed is worth....I play to win buddy......I only was making a point to how the small business person felt.......Your example of waitresses and waiters does not hold water, since per hour they make much more and much of it is illegal (since they do not report it)....i know waiters who mkae $500 a night for a 7 hour shift....That is not minimum wage pal!!!

But again i reiterate i do not know where i stand on the issue.....I simply was stating a fact.....You my friend have an employee menatality and are looking for anything that is given......It is called an entitlement mentality......."there is no free lunch pal"......

You should probably do a little more research about a topic you know so little about.....Small Business....You make an awful lot of assumptions about them.....Many if you were to break it down by the hour make a lot less than you may think.....They are the backbone of this country.....

Every bar owner i knows clips a little off the top for themselves since it is a cash business....Many other businesses are not afforded that luxury.....

Oh and by the way i was a union laborer for 6 years while putting myself through school and my parents were union also......Am i a supporter of unions....I was, but not now....I see so many injustices it is not funny.....In my town alone the firefighters get 50% pension of their last 3 years wages, so what do they do.....All the senior guys get all the OT and bloat their pay so they get lifetime pension based on those inflated salaries.....Also fighting your first fire does not entitle you to shit...It is your job.....Do not pull that hero shit with me....Your 25 years of service qualified you for that......Most firefighters i know and i do commend them....still have plenty of time to hold down another fulltime job......I admit when you do fight a fire it is a dangerous job, but you chose it buddy......and 95% of the time it is a tit job......There also should be a physical test every year for these guys....Too many fatso's fighting fires.......then they blame it on job hypertension.....I blame it on sitting on your ass all day and eating.....

Quickest way to a job where you do not have to perform = Union

also it is not just big business that can go overseas for products......all sizes can and do......First it is silly to go head to head with a big company....A small business owner has to be nimble and create his own niche......Too many people like you love to throw blame.....Guys like me we do not make excuses, we just adjust and get it done.......Union guys complain and picket.....ha ha.....and you said you knew me....Thank you for your service though....

[cd329]

One of the funniest threads i have ever read and am not even going to bother trying to do battle with you, because your whole menatality sums it up best with your own quote
"i do not begrudge a good job to anyone....I am simply stating the ramifications" yup the ramifications are guys like you having to make a little less money and pay people decent human wages that they can live on, guess thats a concept that escapes fatcat guys like you, who have 200k sheds. Talk about bloated salaries, you dont have to look any further then all you fat cat executive's who sit on your asses all day and wouldnt know what a real days work if it hit you in the head. You have the nerve to bash on the working guy who actually keeps the country moving everyday, while you fat cats in big corporations, have the bloated salaries, bloated pensions, bloated expense accounts, for basically doing crap all day. Oh i forgot spending the day at the country club, discussing where you will vacation next is very hard work. Show me 1 executive who is worth what they get paid, because there arent any. Friggin ceo of general electric made 32 million dollars, yeah like hes worth it, lollllllll but am sure in your eyes he is. The company could save a ton by just hiring 10 guys at 100k a year to just do his job and nothing else {which really isnt anything and then they would have to fire the secretary who do their jobs anyways} and they could save 31 million.
So please dont even try to compare the salaries of the working guy to the bloated salaries of the fat cats, cause thats a joke.
My point about the waiters was why should the owner get away with not even having to pay minimum wage? Also your point about waiters making 500 bucks a night, i wasnt referring to the waiters and waitresses working at the 5 star restaurants. I was talking about the people working in the small not fancy places, am sure you wouldnt know what that is away from your country club .
You mention "entitlement mentality" and its not a free ride. Am not talking about welfare or paying people not to work, am talking about paying people a decent wage so they can live and not just be working to make the business owner all the money.
Its called being a good human being and helping mankind, a concept you probably dont understand because in your world other people are here to make two ton tonys lifestyle better.
Typical rich guy mentality, me, me, me, its mine, its mine.
By the way i worked 2 other jobs when i was a firefighter, along with helping my wife in her business which sees had for the last 10 years, so there was no free ride for me.
One last thing how could you even compare a guy who works a ton of ot to jack up his pension, compared to a fat cat executive who walks away with a bloated pension to begin with for not even knowing what a hard days work is?
Glad everything has worked out for you in life and i wish you continued success.
good luck

[amhlilhaus]

kennedy talks a lot of shit, but he's never had to work a day in his life and he voted for all of his own pay raises, typical of our hypocritical leaders, none of them knows anything but what they're bribed to.

minimum wage laws don't hurt poor people, it's lack of education, discipline, and the desire to succeed and the willigness to do what it takes to achieve it.

if you're poor, can't get a good job then it's your decision to do several things, get more education, live cheaper, don't have kids, don't drink or do drugs, work two jobs to save more money but most of these people who aren't elderly, just graduated from high school or mentally challenged or disabled will not do those things, I grew up with them, I was probably considered one of them and I tell you from experience, they get what they deserve, NOTHING.

[cd329]

Two Ton Tony,
Just want you to know even thou me and you are throwing shots back at each other about this topic, it doesnt mean i hate you. Some topics just get under my skin, especially ones that have to do with all those corrupt politicians we have in this country. But i still hope you beat the mans brains out gambling, because hes public enemy number one

[TwoTonTony]

One of the funniest threads i have ever read and am not even going to bother trying to do battle with you, because your whole menatality sums it up best with your own quote
"i do not begrudge a good job to anyone....I am simply stating the ramifications" yup the ramifications are guys like you having to make a little less money and pay people decent human wages that they can live on, guess thats a concept that escapes fatcat guys like you, who have 200k sheds. Talk about bloated salaries, you dont have to look any further then all you fat cat executive's who sit on your asses all day and wouldnt know what a real days work if it hit you in the head. You have the nerve to bash on the working guy who actually keeps the country moving everyday, while you fat cats in big corporations, have the bloated salaries, bloated pensions, bloated expense accounts, for basically doing crap all day. Oh i forgot spending the day at the country club, discussing where you will vacation next is very hard work. Show me 1 executive who is worth what they get paid, because there arent any. Friggin ceo of general electric made 32 million dollars, yeah like hes worth it, lollllllll but am sure in your eyes he is. The company could save a ton by just hiring 10 guys at 100k a year to just do his job and nothing else {which really isnt anything and then they would have to fire the secretary who do their jobs anyways} and they could save 31 million.
So please dont even try to compare the salaries of the working guy to the bloated salaries of the fat cats, cause thats a joke.
My point about the waiters was why should the owner get away with not even having to pay minimum wage? Also your point about waiters making 500 bucks a night, i wasnt referring to the waiters and waitresses working at the 5 star restaurants. I was talking about the people working in the small not fancy places, am sure you wouldnt know what that is away from your country club .
You mention "entitlement mentality" and its not a free ride. Am not talking about welfare or paying people not to work, am talking about paying people a decent wage so they can live and not just be working to make the business owner all the money.
Its called being a good human being and helping mankind, a concept you probably dont understand because in your world other people are here to make two ton tonys lifestyle better.
Typical rich guy mentality, me, me, me, its mine, its mine.
By the way i worked 2 other jobs when i was a firefighter, along with helping my wife in her business which sees had for the last 10 years, so there was no free ride for me.
One last thing how could you even compare a guy who works a ton of ot to jack up his pension, compared to a fat cat executive who walks away with a bloated pension to begin with for not even knowing what a hard days work is?
Glad everything has worked out for you in life and i wish you continued success.
good luck

are you nuts??? i was a corporate sales executive.....not a ceo....that is a fancy word for Salesman.....I worked my ass off as i do now in my own business......Up until 2 years ago i did not even know what anything less than an 70 hour work week was....So spare me the drama.......Also the 200k shed thing was a joke...You made reference to a house costing 200k and it being a mansion....Where the hell do you live?? Where i am from you can barely buy a toolshed for that....hence the reference.....

I make a good living......nowhere near what you think.....I earn every penny and take numerous risks.....as every business person does....


You make alot of assumptions my man......I also happen to agree that these execs packages are out of line...But i assure you of this i was traveling 4 days a week to earn my pay...away from my family....i had no desk job buddy....I also have never been to a country club.....nor would i want to.....

Your anger seems to have gotten the best of you my friend....or you can not read...I never once said i supported any of what you accuse me of....I simply was explaining how it felt from a small business guys perspective...Just sharing....

I also stated i always paid my people more....Is that a me me me attitude...I could have pocketed that if i wanted to.....I also set up scholarships in peoples names, funded by myself......I also give to schools, little leagues, churches....you name it.....And it ain't for the write off which is limited anyways to a certain amount...it is because it is close to my heart.....

I think we have our issues confused here.....You think everyone should be equal...I do not...I think the people who take the risk and build companies should be rewarded......I am talking about private companies....you make reference to public companies which are funded by stock purchases.....

Every one should be able to make a living....But a minimum wage job is supposed to be a stepping stone to betterment......

I also do not think just because a guy is the best burger flipper in the world his job should pay him $20 per hour.....A certain job can only be paid so much....

I am not here to argue with you....but you make an awful lot of assumptions based on what i wrote....I do not even play golf.......I prefer other sports like boxing and working out....yeah real blue blood sports....ha ha!!!

[cd329]

Tony,
I agree with you 100 percent about a minimum wage job being a stepping stone to a better job and you also correct about the guy being the best burger flipper shouldnt earn 20 bucks an hour.
My whole point about the minimum wage thing was you cant have everything in society go up, yet the minimum wage workers wage stays the same for years, thats just not right.
Their wage scale should raise just the way everything else raises. I didnt mean for minimum wage jobs to become 30k a year jobs. I dont know what a fair increase would be, that would reflect the rising prices of everything else in society.
Maybe its 25 cents an hour maybe its a buck an hour, i just know that you cant pay a person the same wages for years, while everything else around him goes up. Sure in a perfect world where nothing went up, then of course there wages should stay the same. My God its just human decency.
Maybe you were thinking i thought that these jobs should be paying equal to other jobs, thats not what i meant. I mean come on,as our incomes rise the people at the low end shouldnt have their incomes rise a little? I sure hope that isnt what you believe.
good luck tony

[TwoTonTony]

Tony,
I agree with you 100 percent about a minimum wage job being a stepping stone to a better job and you also correct about the guy being the best burger flipper shouldnt earn 20 bucks an hour.
My whole point about the minimum wage thing was you cant have everything in society go up, yet the minimum wage workers wage stays the same for years, thats just not right.
Their wage scale should raise just the way everything else raises. I didnt mean for minimum wage jobs to become 30k a year jobs. I dont know what a fair increase would be, that would reflect the rising prices of everything else in society.
Maybe its 25 cents an hour maybe its a buck an hour, i just know that you cant pay a person the same wages for years, while everything else around him goes up. Sure in a perfect world where nothing went up, then of course there wages should stay the same. My God its just human decency.
Maybe you were thinking i thought that these jobs should be paying equal to other jobs, thats not what i meant. I mean come on,as our incomes rise the people at the low end shouldnt have their incomes rise a little? I sure hope that isnt what you believe.
good luck tony

all valid points...

[te14]

Different thread, same old same old. Every time this gets started, the usual sides get taken and the Left whines about how the Reps screw the poor. Excuse me, did the Dems vote themselves a pay raise? Did the entire Congress exclude themselves from the same Social Security plan the rest of America has to obide by? Why is only one party singled out? Because it fits your argument, same as us.

From each according to his means, to each according to his needs.....Marx Communist Manifesto. Keep it up, sooner or later we'll get there and the defenders of the poor can defend us right into a epic downfall.