Anyone Watching the David Ortiz Statement and Press Conference?

[savage1]

So as of right now the only player you put in this inconclusive class is Ortiz?

Read the post right before this one for my feelings.
Honestly, at this point, no other names come to mind.
Who would you suggest at this point?

[kbsooner21]

Savage, is there any other player that has been accused that has proven themselves innocent?

[BettorsChat]

Savage, is there any other player that has been accused that has proven themselves innocent?

Which ones named have been tried legally by a Court and found guilty?

[savage1]

Here is another and interesting and what I perceive as fair assessment from someone of what happened-I think this has as much validity as anything else stated:

I am not sure if I believe him or not(stated by the person who wrote the article regarding the following in response to whether Ortiz is telling the ruth or not and not me questioning whether Ortiz is telling the truth or not).
The argument I hear over and over again from many fans who are convinced that Ortiz' gaudy numbers are the product of systematic PED use is the fact that he went from a nobody on the Twins to a feared power slugger on the Red Sox. The fact is that this can be explained another way. In Tom Verducci's SI piece on Ortiz, written in 2006, he explains that Ortiz deeply resented the way the Twins used him:

"Ortiz had felt stifled in Minnesota, an organization that so emphasizes situa*tional hitting that no Twin has hit 30 home runs in a season since 1987. The 6'4" Ortiz was the square peg who *didn’t fit in the round hole. “They wanted me to stay inside the ball,” Ortiz says, referring to a style in which a lefthanded hitter tries to hit inside pitches to leftfield. “They were teaching that to everyone. That’s why nobody ever hits home runs there. But when you’re young in the big leagues and the coach tells you to do something and you don’t do it and you get negative results, then you’re f-----. They’re going to sit you down.”

The Twins, Ortiz says, so enthusiastically stressed small-ball tactics such as hitting behind runners that “if you moved the runner over from second base [with a groundout], you got high fives in the dugout like you just hit a home run.”

In his first at bat with the Red Sox, while batting cleanup in a spring training game, Ortiz happened to come up with a runner on second base and no outs. “I came in with that little pull, cheap-shot s---,” said Ortiz, explaining his grounder to second base on an outside sinker. “I still had the Minnesota Twins in my system.”

This time there were no high fives waiting for him in the dugout, just manager Grady Little with a word of advice. “Hey,” Little said. “Next time? Bring him in.”

Ortiz smiles at the memory. “I was like, O.K.!” he says. “I had a little more freedom than what I was used to.”

Says Epstein, “We *didn’t know what we were getting. Nobody knew. We just let him be exactly what he is.”

Ortiz, with a mechanical tune-up from hitting coach Ron *Jackson, and freed of the wear and tear of playing in the field, *started turning on inside pitches and closing that hole in his swing on inside fastballs. From June 1, 2003, through June 1, 2006, he slammed 132 home runs, second only to Albert Pujols’s 140 in the majors. He finished fifth, fourth and second in AL MVP balloting in the past three seasons while conjuring up so much late-*inning *magic—he has 13 walk-off hits with the Red Sox, including three in Boston’s 2004 postseason run to a world *championship—that last year the team presented him with a plaque declaring him THE GREATEST CLUTCH HITTER IN THE HISTORY OF THE BOSTON RED SOX."

I am not saying Ortiz was not helped at all by steroids. Assuming that he is telling the truth about how he came to test positive in 2003, the supplement he took, though legally purchased over the counter, probably contained a powerful steroid. But my point is that it is certainly feasible that the dramatic spike his numbers took could be accounted for by the completely different atmosphere and hitting philosophy Ortiz found in Boston. His own growing confidence and maturity as a hitter probably also played a role.

Also in his favor is the fact that he said a long time ago that he took supplements without knowing exactly what was in them. His story at least hangs together.

I am not sure whether or not I believe that after 2003, he never took anything. But the case is certainly not as clear-cut against him as many Yankee fans think.

[BettorsChat]

Cliff notes someone

[savage1]

Savage, is there any other player that has been accused that has proven themselves innocent?

That is a non sequitur and begs the question.

[molta02]

Here is another and interesting and what I perceive as fair assessment from someone of what happened-I think this has as much validity as anything else stated:

I am not sure if I believe him or not(stated by the person who wrote the article regarding the following in response to whether Ortiz is telling the ruth or not and not me questioning whether Ortiz is telling the truth or not).
The argument I hear over and over again from many fans who are convinced that Ortiz' gaudy numbers are the product of systematic PED use is the fact that he went from a nobody on the Twins to a feared power slugger on the Red Sox. The fact is that this can be explained another way. In Tom Verducci's SI piece on Ortiz, written in 2006, he explains that Ortiz deeply resented the way the Twins used him:

"Ortiz had felt stifled in Minnesota, an organization that so emphasizes situa*tional hitting that no Twin has hit 30 home runs in a season since 1987. The 6'4" Ortiz was the square peg who *didn’t fit in the round hole. “They wanted me to stay inside the ball,” Ortiz says, referring to a style in which a lefthanded hitter tries to hit inside pitches to leftfield. “They were teaching that to everyone. That’s why nobody ever hits home runs there. But when you’re young in the big leagues and the coach tells you to do something and you don’t do it and you get negative results, then you’re f-----. They’re going to sit you down.”

The Twins, Ortiz says, so enthusiastically stressed small-ball tactics such as hitting behind runners that “if you moved the runner over from second base [with a groundout], you got high fives in the dugout like you just hit a home run.”

In his first at bat with the Red Sox, while batting cleanup in a spring training game, Ortiz happened to come up with a runner on second base and no outs. “I came in with that little pull, cheap-shot s---,” said Ortiz, explaining his grounder to second base on an outside sinker. “I still had the Minnesota Twins in my system.”

This time there were no high fives waiting for him in the dugout, just manager Grady Little with a word of advice. “Hey,” Little said. “Next time? Bring him in.”

Ortiz smiles at the memory. “I was like, O.K.!” he says. “I had a little more freedom than what I was used to.”

Says Epstein, “We *didn’t know what we were getting. Nobody knew. We just let him be exactly what he is.”

Ortiz, with a mechanical tune-up from hitting coach Ron *Jackson, and freed of the wear and tear of playing in the field, *started turning on inside pitches and closing that hole in his swing on inside fastballs. From June 1, 2003, through June 1, 2006, he slammed 132 home runs, second only to Albert Pujols’s 140 in the majors. He finished fifth, fourth and second in AL MVP balloting in the past three seasons while conjuring up so much late-*inning *magic—he has 13 walk-off hits with the Red Sox, including three in Boston’s 2004 postseason run to a world *championship—that last year the team presented him with a plaque declaring him THE GREATEST CLUTCH HITTER IN THE HISTORY OF THE BOSTON RED SOX."

I am not saying Ortiz was not helped at all by steroids. Assuming that he is telling the truth about how he came to test positive in 2003, the supplement he took, though legally purchased over the counter, probably contained a powerful steroid. But my point is that it is certainly feasible that the dramatic spike his numbers took could be accounted for by the completely different atmosphere and hitting philosophy Ortiz found in Boston. His own growing confidence and maturity as a hitter probably also played a role.

Also in his favor is the fact that he said a long time ago that he took supplements without knowing exactly what was in them. His story at least hangs together.

I am not sure whether or not I believe that after 2003, he never took anything. But the case is certainly not as clear-cut against him as many Yankee fans think.

you still believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus? the easter bunny says hello.

[savage1]

you still believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus? the easter bunny says hello.

Your problem is that when someone else posts an opposing point of view to which you have no answers and/or posts some facts to back it up, all you can do is laugh it off without giving any reasons as to why what was stated is false.

[molta02]

Your problem is that when someone else posts an opposing point of view to which you have no answers and/or posts some facts to back it up, all you can do is laugh it off without giving any reasons stated to why what was stated is false.

connect the dots with ortiz. and i wouldn't call a ball-washing article about ortiz as 'facts'.

[kbsooner21]

Your problem is that when someone else posts an opposing point of view to which you have no answers and/or posts some facts to back it up, all you can do is laugh it off without giving any reasons as to why what was stated is false.

Savage, not one post in this thread agrees with you. That in itself should tell you at least a little.

[savage1]

Savage, not one post in this thread agrees with you. That in itself should tell you at least a little.

How about post 82?
By your "logic" when all sports services agree that a certain team will cover, it is wise to bet that side because it can't lose-try that logic and see how you do gambling over time.
As is the case with Molta, your statements are non sequitur and beg the question, and you don't respond directly to points made, in this case me.

[savage1]

connect the dots with ortiz. and i wouldn't call a ball-washing article about ortiz as 'facts'.

"Connect the dots" is a cliche;I presented an article to think about.
Dispute/refute the points made in it DIRECTLY without "beating around the bush."

[mavskidd02]

I don't even want to read this thread. I know there is some stuff I should respond to, but I don't feel like reading 40 posts, and Savage's essays about how the great Ortiz is innocent....

trial by jury.....

Clemens did it to......

blah blah blah blah

[BettorsChat]

That is a non sequitur and begs the question.

non sequitur

Savage is on fire today

[frankb03]

Yes but you haved no actual proof as to what years he used them-that is circumstantial evidence, and thats it.

WTF are you talking about? He tested positive in 2003. His 2003 season coincides with statistical explosion.

I'm at a loss as to what are you trying to convey? Regardless what he took or where he got it he tested positive in 2003 or are you refuting that test?